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Home » Eclipse Projects » EPP » Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions
Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #7405] Wed, 20 February 2008 19:14 Go to next message
Kevin McGuire is currently offline Kevin McGuire
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi guys,

I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.

Some comments:

1) Should be organized by project:

The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.

The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.

2) Couldn't find the download:

If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
Where's the actual download?

3) Missing milestone granularity:

I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.

So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.

The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
thing.

Cheers,
Kevin
Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #7416 is a reply to message #7405] Thu, 21 February 2008 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: mknauer.innoopract.com

Hi Kevin,

that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on those
download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
how to improve the pages. Thanks.

See my comments in the text below.

Markus




Kevin McGuire wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>
> Some comments:
>
> 1) Should be organized by project:
>
> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>
http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.

Cool.
I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.


> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.

Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted to
create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a first
glance.

=> I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least we
should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the 'milestone
release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)


> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>
> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
> Where's the actual download?

Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the scripts
that re-generate the page content after every build.
The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from the
build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)


> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>
> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.

Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick fix
I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location with
the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.

> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.

Let's try to change this!


> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
> thing.
>
> Cheers,
> Kevin


Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us know
if you have more suggestions.

Markus
Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #7427 is a reply to message #7416] Thu, 21 February 2008 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin McGuire is currently offline Kevin McGuire
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Markus,

Thanks for the reply. I do think the packagings are the way to go so am
happy to provide feedback and ideas. I want to see this stuff successful!

In your reply you pointed me at the milestone page, which I didn't know
existed. This is really what I was looking for, so we're actually close!

Some comments/suggestions:

1) I never found that milestone page. You've added the link from the
downloads to the milestone page and that would've solved it for me. It
could also be added to the "Important Links" list on the left hand side.
It may need to be sprinkled in other locations (e.g. see #3 and #4).

2) The URLs are a bit misleading because the daily build page is called
"\downloads" so I was expecting to find everything there (or rather,
didn't believe that another page existed).

3) As you noted, other projects should point to the milestone page.
This should be promoted as the "public" entry point, with the current
downloads (daily) page providing build health feedback to the teams.

4) On the main EPP page (http://www.eclipse.org/epp/), the "Downloads"
link in the left hand side (dark blue nav list) points to the daily
builds. I'd suggest it point to the milestones page instead, with the
the milestone page having a link to the daily builds. Again, first stop
for consumers should be milestone so this page should be promoted.

5) The main Eclipse downloads page (http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/)
gives all the Europa packages but I couldn't find a link to the current
milestones. But then, maybe you don't want to do that, with the idea of
splitting "consumer level" products from "developer testing" milestone
builds. Dunno. This split is something that we've never properly
established in Eclipse. Mind you, I think the great opportunity for the
packaging project is exactly around making this division clearer.

Best Regards,
Kevin McGuire

Markus Knauer wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
>
> that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on those
> download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
> everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
> how to improve the pages. Thanks.
>
> See my comments in the text below.
>
> Markus
>
>
>
>
> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
>> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
>> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
>> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>>
>> Some comments:
>>
>> 1) Should be organized by project:
>>
>> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
>> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
>> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>>
> http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
>> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.
>
> Cool.
> I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.
>
>
>> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
>> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
>> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
>> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
>> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.
>
> Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted to
> create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a first
> glance.
>
> => I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least we
> should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the 'milestone
> release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)
>
>
>> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>>
>> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
>> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
>> Where's the actual download?
>
> Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the scripts
> that re-generate the page content after every build.
> The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from the
> build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)
>
>
>> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>>
>> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
>> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
>> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
>> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
>> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
>> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.
>
> Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick fix
> I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location with
> the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.
>
>> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.
>
> Let's try to change this!
>
>
>> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
>> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
>> thing.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kevin
>
>
> Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us know
> if you have more suggestions.
>
> Markus
>
Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #7438 is a reply to message #7427] Thu, 21 February 2008 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: mknauer.innoopract.com

Hi Kevin,

as a first approach, I've created 3 categories: release, milestone, nightly
builds. These are linked from the main EPP page http://www.eclipse.org/epp.

All 3 pages contain links to the other categories: The main eclipse.org
download page lists the Ganymede Milestone packages in the top right
corner, the EPP milestone and EPP nightly build pages contain links to each
other.

And last but not least the menu on the left is pointing to the milestone and
nightly builds.

At this point, I cannot change the naming too much, because these pages are
linked from many places.

Stay tuned (and send comments), there will be more changes in the next
weeks.

Thanks
Markus




Kevin McGuire wrote:

> Hi Markus,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I do think the packagings are the way to go so am
> happy to provide feedback and ideas. I want to see this stuff successful!
>
> In your reply you pointed me at the milestone page, which I didn't know
> existed. This is really what I was looking for, so we're actually close!
>
> Some comments/suggestions:
>
> 1) I never found that milestone page. You've added the link from the
> downloads to the milestone page and that would've solved it for me. It
> could also be added to the "Important Links" list on the left hand side.
> It may need to be sprinkled in other locations (e.g. see #3 and #4).
>
> 2) The URLs are a bit misleading because the daily build page is called
> "\downloads" so I was expecting to find everything there (or rather,
> didn't believe that another page existed).
>
> 3) As you noted, other projects should point to the milestone page.
> This should be promoted as the "public" entry point, with the current
> downloads (daily) page providing build health feedback to the teams.
>
> 4) On the main EPP page (http://www.eclipse.org/epp/), the "Downloads"
> link in the left hand side (dark blue nav list) points to the daily
> builds. I'd suggest it point to the milestones page instead, with the
> the milestone page having a link to the daily builds. Again, first stop
> for consumers should be milestone so this page should be promoted.
>
> 5) The main Eclipse downloads page (http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/)
> gives all the Europa packages but I couldn't find a link to the current
> milestones. But then, maybe you don't want to do that, with the idea of
> splitting "consumer level" products from "developer testing" milestone
> builds. Dunno. This split is something that we've never properly
> established in Eclipse. Mind you, I think the great opportunity for the
> packaging project is exactly around making this division clearer.
>
> Best Regards,
> Kevin McGuire
>
> Markus Knauer wrote:
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on
>> those download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
>> everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
>> how to improve the pages. Thanks.
>>
>> See my comments in the text below.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
>>> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
>>> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>>>
>>> Some comments:
>>>
>>> 1) Should be organized by project:
>>>
>>> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
>>> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
>>> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>>>
>>
http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
>>> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.
>>
>> Cool.
>> I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.
>>
>>
>>> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
>>> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
>>> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
>>> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
>>> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.
>>
>> Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted
>> to create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a
>> first glance.
>>
>> => I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least
>> we should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the
>> 'milestone release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)
>>
>>
>>> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>>>
>>> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
>>> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
>>> Where's the actual download?
>>
>> Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the
>> scripts that re-generate the page content after every build.
>> The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from
>> the build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)
>>
>>
>>> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>>>
>>> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
>>> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
>>> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
>>> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
>>> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
>>> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.
>>
>> Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick
>> fix I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location
>> with the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.
>>
>>> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.
>>
>> Let's try to change this!
>>
>>
>>> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
>>> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
>>> thing.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us
>> know if you have more suggestions.
>>
>> Markus
>>
Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #7450 is a reply to message #7438] Thu, 21 February 2008 17:45 Go to previous message
Kevin McGuire is currently offline Kevin McGuire
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Markus,

Great! Will keep an eye out for additional changes (not that I have
opportunity to but I will try to remember to check back).

Cheers,
Kevin

PS. As I reread my suggestions below I used a lot of "should's".
Seemed stronger than I intended! Oops! Just trying to be helpful :)

Markus Knauer wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
>
> as a first approach, I've created 3 categories: release, milestone, nightly
> builds. These are linked from the main EPP page http://www.eclipse.org/epp.
>
> All 3 pages contain links to the other categories: The main eclipse.org
> download page lists the Ganymede Milestone packages in the top right
> corner, the EPP milestone and EPP nightly build pages contain links to each
> other.
>
> And last but not least the menu on the left is pointing to the milestone and
> nightly builds.
>
> At this point, I cannot change the naming too much, because these pages are
> linked from many places.
>
> Stay tuned (and send comments), there will be more changes in the next
> weeks.
>
> Thanks
> Markus
>
>
>
>
> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>
>> Hi Markus,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply. I do think the packagings are the way to go so am
>> happy to provide feedback and ideas. I want to see this stuff successful!
>>
>> In your reply you pointed me at the milestone page, which I didn't know
>> existed. This is really what I was looking for, so we're actually close!
>>
>> Some comments/suggestions:
>>
>> 1) I never found that milestone page. You've added the link from the
>> downloads to the milestone page and that would've solved it for me. It
>> could also be added to the "Important Links" list on the left hand side.
>> It may need to be sprinkled in other locations (e.g. see #3 and #4).
>>
>> 2) The URLs are a bit misleading because the daily build page is called
>> "\downloads" so I was expecting to find everything there (or rather,
>> didn't believe that another page existed).
>>
>> 3) As you noted, other projects should point to the milestone page.
>> This should be promoted as the "public" entry point, with the current
>> downloads (daily) page providing build health feedback to the teams.
>>
>> 4) On the main EPP page (http://www.eclipse.org/epp/), the "Downloads"
>> link in the left hand side (dark blue nav list) points to the daily
>> builds. I'd suggest it point to the milestones page instead, with the
>> the milestone page having a link to the daily builds. Again, first stop
>> for consumers should be milestone so this page should be promoted.
>>
>> 5) The main Eclipse downloads page (http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/)
>> gives all the Europa packages but I couldn't find a link to the current
>> milestones. But then, maybe you don't want to do that, with the idea of
>> splitting "consumer level" products from "developer testing" milestone
>> builds. Dunno. This split is something that we've never properly
>> established in Eclipse. Mind you, I think the great opportunity for the
>> packaging project is exactly around making this division clearer.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Kevin McGuire
>>
>> Markus Knauer wrote:
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>
>>> that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on
>>> those download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
>>> everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
>>> how to improve the pages. Thanks.
>>>
>>> See my comments in the text below.
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
>>>> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
>>>> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>>>>
>>>> Some comments:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Should be organized by project:
>>>>
>>>> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
>>>> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
>>>> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>>>>
> http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
>>>> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.
>>> Cool.
>>> I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
>>>> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
>>>> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
>>>> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
>>>> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.
>>> Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted
>>> to create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a
>>> first glance.
>>>
>>> => I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least
>>> we should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the
>>> 'milestone release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>>>>
>>>> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
>>>> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
>>>> Where's the actual download?
>>> Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the
>>> scripts that re-generate the page content after every build.
>>> The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from
>>> the build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>>>>
>>>> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
>>>> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
>>>> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
>>>> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
>>>> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
>>>> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.
>>> Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick
>>> fix I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location
>>> with the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.
>>>
>>>> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.
>>> Let's try to change this!
>>>
>>>
>>>> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
>>>> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
>>>> thing.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us
>>> know if you have more suggestions.
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>
Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #576087 is a reply to message #7405] Thu, 21 February 2008 11:57 Go to previous message
Markus Knauer is currently offline Markus Knauer
Messages: 105
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member

Hi Kevin,

that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on those
download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
how to improve the pages. Thanks.

See my comments in the text below.

Markus




Kevin McGuire wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>
> Some comments:
>
> 1) Should be organized by project:
>
> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>
http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.

Cool.
I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.


> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.

Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted to
create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a first
glance.

=> I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least we
should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the 'milestone
release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)


> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>
> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
> Where's the actual download?

Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the scripts
that re-generate the page content after every build.
The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from the
build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)


> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>
> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.

Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick fix
I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location with
the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.

> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.

Let's try to change this!


> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
> thing.
>
> Cheers,
> Kevin


Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us know
if you have more suggestions.

Markus


--
Markus Knauer

Twitter: @EclipseRAP
Blog: http://eclipsesource.com/blogs/

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Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #576107 is a reply to message #7416] Thu, 21 February 2008 13:51 Go to previous message
Kevin McGuire is currently offline Kevin McGuire
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Markus,

Thanks for the reply. I do think the packagings are the way to go so am
happy to provide feedback and ideas. I want to see this stuff successful!

In your reply you pointed me at the milestone page, which I didn't know
existed. This is really what I was looking for, so we're actually close!

Some comments/suggestions:

1) I never found that milestone page. You've added the link from the
downloads to the milestone page and that would've solved it for me. It
could also be added to the "Important Links" list on the left hand side.
It may need to be sprinkled in other locations (e.g. see #3 and #4).

2) The URLs are a bit misleading because the daily build page is called
"\downloads" so I was expecting to find everything there (or rather,
didn't believe that another page existed).

3) As you noted, other projects should point to the milestone page.
This should be promoted as the "public" entry point, with the current
downloads (daily) page providing build health feedback to the teams.

4) On the main EPP page (http://www.eclipse.org/epp/), the "Downloads"
link in the left hand side (dark blue nav list) points to the daily
builds. I'd suggest it point to the milestones page instead, with the
the milestone page having a link to the daily builds. Again, first stop
for consumers should be milestone so this page should be promoted.

5) The main Eclipse downloads page (http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/)
gives all the Europa packages but I couldn't find a link to the current
milestones. But then, maybe you don't want to do that, with the idea of
splitting "consumer level" products from "developer testing" milestone
builds. Dunno. This split is something that we've never properly
established in Eclipse. Mind you, I think the great opportunity for the
packaging project is exactly around making this division clearer.

Best Regards,
Kevin McGuire

Markus Knauer wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
>
> that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on those
> download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
> everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
> how to improve the pages. Thanks.
>
> See my comments in the text below.
>
> Markus
>
>
>
>
> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
>> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
>> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
>> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>>
>> Some comments:
>>
>> 1) Should be organized by project:
>>
>> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
>> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
>> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>>
> http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
>> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.
>
> Cool.
> I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.
>
>
>> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
>> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
>> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
>> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
>> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.
>
> Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted to
> create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a first
> glance.
>
> => I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least we
> should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the 'milestone
> release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)
>
>
>> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>>
>> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
>> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
>> Where's the actual download?
>
> Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the scripts
> that re-generate the page content after every build.
> The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from the
> build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)
>
>
>> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>>
>> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
>> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
>> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
>> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
>> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
>> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.
>
> Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick fix
> I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location with
> the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.
>
>> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.
>
> Let's try to change this!
>
>
>> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
>> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
>> thing.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kevin
>
>
> Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us know
> if you have more suggestions.
>
> Markus
>
Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #576148 is a reply to message #7427] Thu, 21 February 2008 17:16 Go to previous message
Markus Knauer is currently offline Markus Knauer
Messages: 105
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member

Hi Kevin,

as a first approach, I've created 3 categories: release, milestone, nightly
builds. These are linked from the main EPP page http://www.eclipse.org/epp

All 3 pages contain links to the other categories: The main eclipse.org
download page lists the Ganymede Milestone packages in the top right
corner, the EPP milestone and EPP nightly build pages contain links to each
other.

And last but not least the menu on the left is pointing to the milestone and
nightly builds.

At this point, I cannot change the naming too much, because these pages are
linked from many places.

Stay tuned (and send comments), there will be more changes in the next
weeks.

Thanks
Markus




Kevin McGuire wrote:

> Hi Markus,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I do think the packagings are the way to go so am
> happy to provide feedback and ideas. I want to see this stuff successful!
>
> In your reply you pointed me at the milestone page, which I didn't know
> existed. This is really what I was looking for, so we're actually close!
>
> Some comments/suggestions:
>
> 1) I never found that milestone page. You've added the link from the
> downloads to the milestone page and that would've solved it for me. It
> could also be added to the "Important Links" list on the left hand side.
> It may need to be sprinkled in other locations (e.g. see #3 and #4).
>
> 2) The URLs are a bit misleading because the daily build page is called
> "\downloads" so I was expecting to find everything there (or rather,
> didn't believe that another page existed).
>
> 3) As you noted, other projects should point to the milestone page.
> This should be promoted as the "public" entry point, with the current
> downloads (daily) page providing build health feedback to the teams.
>
> 4) On the main EPP page (http://www.eclipse.org/epp/), the "Downloads"
> link in the left hand side (dark blue nav list) points to the daily
> builds. I'd suggest it point to the milestones page instead, with the
> the milestone page having a link to the daily builds. Again, first stop
> for consumers should be milestone so this page should be promoted.
>
> 5) The main Eclipse downloads page (http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/)
> gives all the Europa packages but I couldn't find a link to the current
> milestones. But then, maybe you don't want to do that, with the idea of
> splitting "consumer level" products from "developer testing" milestone
> builds. Dunno. This split is something that we've never properly
> established in Eclipse. Mind you, I think the great opportunity for the
> packaging project is exactly around making this division clearer.
>
> Best Regards,
> Kevin McGuire
>
> Markus Knauer wrote:
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on
>> those download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
>> everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
>> how to improve the pages. Thanks.
>>
>> See my comments in the text below.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
>>> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
>>> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>>>
>>> Some comments:
>>>
>>> 1) Should be organized by project:
>>>
>>> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
>>> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
>>> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>>>
>>
http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
>>> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.
>>
>> Cool.
>> I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.
>>
>>
>>> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
>>> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
>>> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
>>> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
>>> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.
>>
>> Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted
>> to create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a
>> first glance.
>>
>> => I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least
>> we should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the
>> 'milestone release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)
>>
>>
>>> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>>>
>>> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
>>> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
>>> Where's the actual download?
>>
>> Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the
>> scripts that re-generate the page content after every build.
>> The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from
>> the build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)
>>
>>
>>> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>>>
>>> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
>>> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
>>> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
>>> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
>>> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
>>> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.
>>
>> Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick
>> fix I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location
>> with the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.
>>
>>> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.
>>
>> Let's try to change this!
>>
>>
>>> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
>>> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
>>> thing.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us
>> know if you have more suggestions.
>>
>> Markus
>>


--
Markus Knauer

Twitter: @EclipseRAP
Blog: http://eclipsesource.com/blogs/

Professional services for RAP and RCP?
http://eclipsesource.com/services/rap/
Re: Downloads page is confusing - questions and suggestions [message #576180 is a reply to message #7438] Thu, 21 February 2008 17:45 Go to previous message
Kevin McGuire is currently offline Kevin McGuire
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Markus,

Great! Will keep an eye out for additional changes (not that I have
opportunity to but I will try to remember to check back).

Cheers,
Kevin

PS. As I reread my suggestions below I used a lot of "should's".
Seemed stronger than I intended! Oops! Just trying to be helpful :)

Markus Knauer wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
>
> as a first approach, I've created 3 categories: release, milestone, nightly
> builds. These are linked from the main EPP page http://www.eclipse.org/epp
>
> All 3 pages contain links to the other categories: The main eclipse.org
> download page lists the Ganymede Milestone packages in the top right
> corner, the EPP milestone and EPP nightly build pages contain links to each
> other.
>
> And last but not least the menu on the left is pointing to the milestone and
> nightly builds.
>
> At this point, I cannot change the naming too much, because these pages are
> linked from many places.
>
> Stay tuned (and send comments), there will be more changes in the next
> weeks.
>
> Thanks
> Markus
>
>
>
>
> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>
>> Hi Markus,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply. I do think the packagings are the way to go so am
>> happy to provide feedback and ideas. I want to see this stuff successful!
>>
>> In your reply you pointed me at the milestone page, which I didn't know
>> existed. This is really what I was looking for, so we're actually close!
>>
>> Some comments/suggestions:
>>
>> 1) I never found that milestone page. You've added the link from the
>> downloads to the milestone page and that would've solved it for me. It
>> could also be added to the "Important Links" list on the left hand side.
>> It may need to be sprinkled in other locations (e.g. see #3 and #4).
>>
>> 2) The URLs are a bit misleading because the daily build page is called
>> "\downloads" so I was expecting to find everything there (or rather,
>> didn't believe that another page existed).
>>
>> 3) As you noted, other projects should point to the milestone page.
>> This should be promoted as the "public" entry point, with the current
>> downloads (daily) page providing build health feedback to the teams.
>>
>> 4) On the main EPP page (http://www.eclipse.org/epp/), the "Downloads"
>> link in the left hand side (dark blue nav list) points to the daily
>> builds. I'd suggest it point to the milestones page instead, with the
>> the milestone page having a link to the daily builds. Again, first stop
>> for consumers should be milestone so this page should be promoted.
>>
>> 5) The main Eclipse downloads page (http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/)
>> gives all the Europa packages but I couldn't find a link to the current
>> milestones. But then, maybe you don't want to do that, with the idea of
>> splitting "consumer level" products from "developer testing" milestone
>> builds. Dunno. This split is something that we've never properly
>> established in Eclipse. Mind you, I think the great opportunity for the
>> packaging project is exactly around making this division clearer.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Kevin McGuire
>>
>> Markus Knauer wrote:
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>
>>> that's what I like to hear... in fact, these are the first comments on
>>> those download pages. Well, I would have preferred something like... hey,
>>> everything looks pretty good. But at least there are many suggestions on
>>> how to improve the pages. Thanks.
>>>
>>> See my comments in the text below.
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to be a good sport and try out the EPP projects because I think
>>>> they're a great idea. But I find the EPP downloads page
>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/epp/download.php
>>>> confusing and I couldn't actually download what I was expecting I could.
>>>>
>>>> Some comments:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Should be organized by project:
>>>>
>>>> The reason that I went to this page is not that I care about every EPP,
>>>> but that I care about a particular one. In this case, I was referred
>>>> here by the webtools 3.4 M5 page
>>>>
> http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/drops/R3.0/S- 3.0M5-20080218021547/
>>>> that asks if folks could please try out the EPP project occassionally.
>>> Cool.
>>> I didn't know that they already have a link to the EPP pages.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The resulting EPP page thus confused me initially because I was
>>>> confronted with a table with build IDs along the top. I'd suggest that
>>>> there be a different build/download page for each packaging project to
>>>> focus on the packaging the person cares about - less overwhealming and I
>>>> could've been linked to the right spot from the webtools page.
>>> Well, my thoughts when I created that page were quite different. I wanted
>>> to create a page which allows to see the build status (red/green) at a
>>> first glance.
>>>
>>> => I will talk with the webtools people and see what we can do. At least
>>> we should clarify the meaning of this 'nightly build page' and the
>>> 'milestone release page' (www.eclipse.org/epp/ganymede.php)
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2) Couldn't find the download:
>>>>
>>>> If I click in the table on the topmost "Success" for say JEE, or any of
>>>> the other successes, I get what appears to be the build result script.
>>>> Where's the actual download?
>>> Correct. I knew that before, but I had no time to change that in the
>>> scripts that re-generate the page content after every build.
>>> The download itself is on a separate download page that is linked from
>>> the build id. I have to admit that this is not really intuitive ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>> 3) Missing milestone granularity:
>>>>
>>>> I really don't want to download a nightly build, what I'd like to
>>>> download is something that represents a given milestone of the contained
>>>> projects, just like I would for those individual projects. That way
>>>> there's at least a chance that it'll work, and there's something known
>>>> to log bugs against. But the table only shows the last four autobuilds
>>>> that only takes me back two days, and I didn't see an archive.
>>> Yepp. You are right again - this is not clear on this page. As a quick
>>> fix I've added a note on the top of that page that points to a location
>>> with the 'stable' Ganymede milestone releases.
>>>
>>>> So in total the page was a complete failure for me, which is a shame.
>>> Let's try to change this!
>>>
>>>
>>>> The more we can increase the consumability of this page, the more we can
>>>> increase use of the packaging projects prior to GA, which seems a good
>>>> thing.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> Thanks again for the comments. I'll work on an improvement, but let us
>>> know if you have more suggestions.
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>
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