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Home » Archived » Board committer reps  » RFC: Eclipse does Paypal?
RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #6072] Wed, 01 August 2007 18:28 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: codeslave.ca.ibm.com

I recently started a discussion in this bug [1] about the idea of
putting a Paypal button on the Eclipse site to provide an option for
people to donate funds or subscribe to pay-per-use services (like
dedicated bandwidth / mirrors).

[1] https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=197425#c5

A lot of corporate-sponsored OSS projects provide ways to allow J.
Random User to help the project out financially. Y'know, obscure,
unheard of little sites like Sourceforge, Apache, Mozilla, KDE, and
ubuntu, to name but five. ;-)

I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?

Would per-project contributions (like on Sourceforge) be a good idea (I
think so)? Or should funds be funnelled directly to the Foundation for
things like bandwidth, hardware, infrastructure (more VoIP servers,
perhaps?), and more staff (webmasters, IP/legal reviewers) ? Or both?

There, I've given you a topic - now I'm getting a little verklempt. Talk
amongst yourselves [2]. ;-)

[2] http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91ncoffeetalk.phtml

/* The opinions expressed in this post are those of myself and do not
necessarily reflect those of my employer. */
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #6088 is a reply to message #6072] Wed, 01 August 2007 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: kosta.bea.com

Hey Nick,

This suggestion comes up ever so often and was even was mentioned in
passing at one of the recent board meetings, but no one took it and
tried to make a concrete proposal out of it.

One of the problems is what to do with the money. Due to the way Eclipse
is setup, I do not believe there is a way to let people direct money to
individual projects. Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
they track/use the money anyway. That leaves directing the money to the
Foundation, either in the general budget or for specific items that
aren't getting funded or aren't getting funded enough from the general
budget. I prefer the second one since if people know how their money is
to be used, they are more likely to donate. The EMO would then be
responsible for proposing/adjusting donation categories and
administering the money that is donated.

Some ideas for donation categories...

* Infrastructure. Includes bandwith, hardware, etc.
* IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
Average.
* Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
hooked early.
* Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
Half the money at project completion. Something like that.

- Konstantin
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #6103 is a reply to message #6088] Wed, 01 August 2007 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: codeslave.ca.ibm.com

Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
> they track/use the money anyway.

I was just thinking of a paypal account set up per project, so if you
wanted to "buy" a new feature, you could not only vote for it, but pay
for it too. Presumably the account would be opened by the project or
component lead, who would distribute the funds to others on that team.

> * IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
> contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
> Average.

Then why not an Orbit bucket? Many people would benefit from having more
IP-clean 3rd party stuff available for use under the EPL.

> * Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
> hooked early.

Sorta like Micro$oft does with its "donations" to universities? 'Teach
your CS classes C# and we'll give you a million bucks.' Yeah, we could
do the same, if we had deep pockets like they do.

> * Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
> scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
> employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
> EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
> proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
> they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
> Half the money at project completion. Something like that.

Sounds a bit like the Google Summer of Code [1] or a Foundation-funded
version of Bug Day [2].

[1] http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC
[2] http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay

Anyway, great ideas, thanks. Glad to see I'm not the only one that
thinks this might work.

Nick
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #6283 is a reply to message #6103] Thu, 02 August 2007 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

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Guys,

I think it would be interesting to bring this up at a board meeting as a
serious proposal in order to gauge people's reactions. Even at a penny
per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I often joke about
"If only I had a penny for every EMF download." Making the foundation
less dependent on the membership dues would be a good thing for
everyone, I think...

I know I'm taking it completely out of context, but Kosta's comment
about "/One of the problems is what to do with the money/" made me
laugh. What's a world without humor though? I'll be more than happy to
help anyone who doesn't know what to do with the money! :-)

Personally I think the money should go into the "greater good fund" and
should be used to enhance and support the infrastructure used by the
committers and the community at large. I can imagine that trying to
earmark donations and targeting them appropriately would easily become a
problem in and of itself, and I think that's partly Kosta's point. Note
that I believe donations would be tax deductible, so that would be an
interesting thing way for folks to multiply their generous contributions...

I'm not sure what would compel people to donate money for something they
get for free anyway, so it would be interesting to find out from other
organizations how effective this technique really is for them. (It does
have that vague feeling of panhandling.)


Nick Boldt wrote:
> Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>
>> Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
>> they track/use the money anyway.
>>
>
> I was just thinking of a paypal account set up per project, so if you
> wanted to "buy" a new feature, you could not only vote for it, but pay
> for it too. Presumably the account would be opened by the project or
> component lead, who would distribute the funds to others on that team.
>
>
>> * IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
>> contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
>> Average.
>>
>
> Then why not an Orbit bucket? Many people would benefit from having more
> IP-clean 3rd party stuff available for use under the EPL.
>
>
>> * Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
>> hooked early.
>>
>
> Sorta like Micro$oft does with its "donations" to universities? 'Teach
> your CS classes C# and we'll give you a million bucks.' Yeah, we could
> do the same, if we had deep pockets like they do.
>
>
>> * Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
>> scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
>> employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
>> EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
>> proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
>> they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
>> Half the money at project completion. Something like that.
>>
>
> Sounds a bit like the Google Summer of Code [1] or a Foundation-funded
> version of Bug Day [2].
>
> [1] http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC
> [2] http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay
>
> Anyway, great ideas, thanks. Glad to see I'm not the only one that
> thinks this might work.
>
> Nick
>


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Guys,<br>
<br>
I think it would be interesting to bring this up at a board meeting as
a serious proposal in order to gauge people's reactions.&nbsp; Even at a
penny per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I often joke
about "If only I had a penny for every EMF download."&nbsp; Making the
foundation less dependent on the membership dues would be a good thing
for everyone, I think...<br>
<br>
I know I'm taking it completely out of context, but Kosta's comment
about "<i>One of the problems is what to do with the money</i>" made me
laugh.&nbsp; What's a world without humor though?&nbsp; I'll be more than happy
to help anyone who doesn't know what to do with the money!&nbsp; :-) <br>
<br>
Personally I think the money should go into the "greater good fund" and
should be used to enhance and support the infrastructure used by the
committers and the community at large.&nbsp; I can imagine that trying to
earmark donations and targeting them appropriately would easily become
a problem in and of itself, and I think that's partly Kosta's point.&nbsp;
Note that I believe donations would be tax deductible, so that would be
an interesting thing way for folks to multiply their generous
contributions...<br>
<br>
I'm not sure what would compel people to donate money for something
they get for free anyway, so it would be interesting to find out from
other organizations how effective this technique really is for them.&nbsp;
(It does have that vague feeling of panhandling.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Nick Boldt wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:f8qnhv$qfs$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
they track/use the money anyway.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
I was just thinking of a paypal account set up per project, so if you
wanted to "buy" a new feature, you could not only vote for it, but pay
for it too. Presumably the account would be opened by the project or
component lead, who would distribute the funds to others on that team.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">* IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
Average.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Then why not an Orbit bucket? Many people would benefit from having more
IP-clean 3rd party stuff available for use under the EPL.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">* Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
hooked early.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Sorta like Micro$oft does with its "donations" to universities? 'Teach
your CS classes C# and we'll give you a million bucks.' Yeah, we could
do the same, if we had deep pockets like they do.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">* Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
Half the money at project completion. Something like that.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Sounds a bit like the Google Summer of Code [1] or a Foundation-funded
version of Bug Day [2].

[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC">http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC</a>
[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay">http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay</a>

Anyway, great ideas, thanks. Glad to see I'm not the only one that
thinks this might work.

Nick
</pre>
</blockquote>
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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #6298 is a reply to message #6283] Thu, 02 August 2007 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Darin Swanson is currently offline Darin Swanson
Messages: 2386
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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I am still waiting for a penny for every Ant build that occurs within / =
from Eclipse.
:-)

"Ed Merks" <merks@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message =
news:f8tafu$bmg$1@build.eclipse.org...
Guys,

Even at a penny per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I =
often joke about "If only I had a penny for every EMF download." =20

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am still waiting for a penny for =
every Ant build=20
that occurs within / from&nbsp;Eclipse.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Ed Merks" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:merks@ca.ibm.com">merks@ca.ibm.com</A>&gt;=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:f8tafu$bmg$1@build.eclipse.org">news:f8tafu$bmg$1@build.ecli=
pse.org</A>...</DIV>Guys,<BR><BR>Even=20
at a penny per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I =
often joke=20
about "If only I had a penny for every EMF download."&nbsp;=20
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7533 is a reply to message #6283] Fri, 03 August 2007 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Eclipse is a 501(c)6 corporation
( http://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/Eclipse%20BYLAWS%202003 _11_10%20Final.pdf).
There are interesting rules around 501(c)6 (see
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopick03.pdf) including "No part of
its net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or
individual" and that the contributions are not tax-deductible
(http://www.give.org/tips/tax.asp#501c6).

So "not tax deductible" and "can't be spent on members/committers". At
least that's the way I read it. Maybe the solution is to form a second
501(c)3 corporation (the Eclipse Foundation Foundation?) to handle
donations...
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7538 is a reply to message #6072] Tue, 07 August 2007 03:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Williams is currently offline David Williams
Messages: 696
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

>
> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>

Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7543 is a reply to message #7538] Tue, 07 August 2007 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

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David,

If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they
actually find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue.
The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool
things it might, so that's the problem to be solved...


David Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>
>>
>
> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>


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David,<br>
<br>
If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many
other open source organizations do it.&nbsp; In particular I wonder if they
actually find that it's an effective way to generate additional
revenue. &nbsp; The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all
the cool things it might, so that's the problem to be solved...<br>
<br>
<br>
David Williams wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:op.twn6mhd8ac05ss@dmw2t23.ibm.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:codeslave@ca.ibm.com">&lt;codeslave@ca.ibm.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?

</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7550 is a reply to message #7533] Wed, 15 August 2007 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Bjorn,

I believe you are misunderstanding the IRS verbiage. "No part of its net
earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual"
does not mean that we could not mean we cannot spend money on
members/committers. What it means is that we cannot have shareholders and
distribute profits (aka net earnings) to any person.

We could actually use money for doing the types of things Nick and
Konstantin and others have suggested, if we (the community, the board)
decided that it was a good idea to do so.

The "not tax-deductible" part is definitely true. But to be honest, I am not
sure that that would be an issue for people. Firstly, even if we were a
charity, only U.S. citizens could claim their donations in any event.
Secondly, for many people the tax deduction is a non-issue for small
donations.

Personally, I think that paying for a bug fix or feature would be a
complicated and dangerous thing to do at Eclipse, but many of the other
ideas are worthy.

"Bjorn Freeman-Benson" <bjorn.freeman-benson@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:46B35F41.1030501@eclipse.org...
> Eclipse is a 501(c)6 corporation
> ( http://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/Eclipse%20BYLAWS%202003 _11_10%20Final.pdf).
> There are interesting rules around 501(c)6 (see
> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopick03.pdf) including "No part of its
> net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or
> individual" and that the contributions are not tax-deductible
> (http://www.give.org/tips/tax.asp#501c6).
>
> So "not tax deductible" and "can't be spent on members/committers". At
> least that's the way I read it. Maybe the solution is to form a second
> 501(c)3 corporation (the Eclipse Foundation Foundation?) to handle
> donations...
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7571 is a reply to message #7550] Wed, 15 August 2007 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Yeesh. I need to proof read better.

"...does not mean that we could not mean we cannot spend money on
members/committers." should read "...does not mean that we cannot spend
money on members/committers."
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7588 is a reply to message #7550] Fri, 17 August 2007 06:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I believe you are misunderstanding the IRS verbiage.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time :-)
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7608 is a reply to message #7543] Fri, 17 August 2007 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: slewis.composent.com

Ed Merks wrote:
> David,
>
> If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
> open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they
> actually find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue.
> The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool
> things it might, so that's the problem to be solved...

Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's
posting was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the
*projects* rather than the *foundation*.

I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users,
and members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
'directional clarity'.

I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor
idea. What is the harm in having some of the community (users,
committers, small corp members) provide support and direction where they
want/need it?



>
>
> David Williams wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
>> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>>
>
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7629 is a reply to message #7608] Sat, 18 August 2007 02:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pascal Rapicault is currently offline Pascal Rapicault
Messages: 290
Registered: July 2009
Location: Ottawa
Senior Member
The problem with financing a project is that the money has to go through the
foundation and I seem to recall a clause somewhere in the status of the
foundation that says that they can't finance any development activity (which
is why the foundation can't have SOC like initiative and pay the students,
or employ full time committers ). Therefore even if it was possible to
direct the money to a particular project, I would imagine that the spendings
would have to be very carefully monitored, thus putting an additional burden
on the foundation...

Overall I like the idea of paypal. However making it available on a
per-project basis will just kill the donator. I would rather see one big
bucket and let the money be managed by committer representatives to pay
things like awards, coop for the foundation to work on infrastructure if it
is necessary (note that this is not code as mentioned above), beer at
eclipseCon and other things that matters to the committers.

PaScaL


"Scott Lewis" <slewis@composent.com> wrote in message
news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com...
> Ed Merks wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
>> open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they actually
>> find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue. The
>> foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things
>> it might, so that's the problem to be solved...
>
> Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
> to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's posting
> was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the *projects*
> rather than the *foundation*.
>
> I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users, and
> members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
> useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
> 'directional clarity'.
>
> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea.
> What is the harm in having some of the community (users, committers, small
> corp members) provide support and direction where they want/need it?
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> David Williams wrote:
>>> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>>>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>>>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad
>>> idea I think this would be.
>>> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>>>
>>
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7651 is a reply to message #7629] Sat, 18 August 2007 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

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Pascal,

I don't think there's a clause saying they can't fund development
activity, otherwise they could not develop things like phoenix. I think
what it roughly says (I should find it to be sure of the exact words,
but hey, it's Saturday) that member organizations must fund their own
employees and that the foundation itself must not fund the members
directly. So, for example, the foundation should not fund travel for
committer reps since their own organizations should do that.

In any case, I think ear marking the funds would be problematic to
manage even though it has a certain appeal as a way of funding
particular projects. I think it would be much easier to manage a global
fund, as you suggest, that would help build infrastructure that's useful
for all committers. Although it's nice to fund things like
scholarships, I don't think the foundation is so well funded that it can
start acting as a charity. Of course scholarships might be used as a
way to fund development work, i.e., your coop idea is a good one! The
key point to me is that funds be exploited to build up and support the
infrastructure used by committers and by the general consuming public.
I know free beer is always a popular topic, but that I wouldn't fund so
generously! :-P


Pascal Rapicault wrote:
> The problem with financing a project is that the money has to go through the
> foundation and I seem to recall a clause somewhere in the status of the
> foundation that says that they can't finance any development activity (which
> is why the foundation can't have SOC like initiative and pay the students,
> or employ full time committers ). Therefore even if it was possible to
> direct the money to a particular project, I would imagine that the spendings
> would have to be very carefully monitored, thus putting an additional burden
> on the foundation...
>
> Overall I like the idea of paypal. However making it available on a
> per-project basis will just kill the donator. I would rather see one big
> bucket and let the money be managed by committer representatives to pay
> things like awards, coop for the foundation to work on infrastructure if it
> is necessary (note that this is not code as mentioned above), beer at
> eclipseCon and other things that matters to the committers.
>
> PaScaL
>
>
> "Scott Lewis" <slewis@composent.com> wrote in message
> news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com...
>
>> Ed Merks wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
>>> open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they actually
>>> find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue. The
>>> foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things
>>> it might, so that's the problem to be solved...
>>>
>> Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
>> to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's posting
>> was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the *projects*
>> rather than the *foundation*.
>>
>> I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users, and
>> members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
>> useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
>> 'directional clarity'.
>>
>> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea.
>> What is the harm in having some of the community (users, committers, small
>> corp members) provide support and direction where they want/need it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> David Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>>>>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>>>>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad
>>>> idea I think this would be.
>>>> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>


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Pascal,<br>
<br>
I don't think there's a clause saying they can't fund development
activity, otherwise they could not develop things like phoenix.&nbsp; I
think what it roughly says (I should find it to be sure of the exact
words, but hey, it's Saturday) that member organizations must fund
their own employees and that the foundation itself must not fund the
members directly.&nbsp; So, for example, the foundation should not fund
travel for committer reps since their own organizations should do
that.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
In any case, I think ear marking the funds would be problematic to
manage even though it has a certain appeal as a way of funding
particular projects.&nbsp; I think it would be much easier to manage a
global fund, as you suggest, that would help build infrastructure
that's useful for all committers.&nbsp; Although it's nice to fund things
like scholarships, I don't think the foundation is so well funded that
it can start acting as a charity.&nbsp; Of course scholarships might be used
as a way to fund development work, i.e., your coop idea is a good one!&nbsp;
The key point to me is that funds be exploited to build up and support
the infrastructure used by committers and by the general consuming
public.&nbsp; I know free beer is always a popular topic, but that I
wouldn't fund so generously!&nbsp; :-P<br>
<br>
<br>
Pascal Rapicault wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:fa5ls0$uhc$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The problem with financing a project is that the money has to go through the
foundation and I seem to recall a clause somewhere in the status of the
foundation that says that they can't finance any development activity (which
is why the foundation can't have SOC like initiative and pay the students,
or employ full time committers ). Therefore even if it was possible to
direct the money to a particular project, I would imagine that the spendings
would have to be very carefully monitored, thus putting an additional burden
on the foundation...

Overall I like the idea of paypal. However making it available on a
per-project basis will just kill the donator. I would rather see one big
bucket and let the money be managed by committer representatives to pay
things like awards, coop for the foundation to work on infrastructure if it
is necessary (note that this is not code as mentioned above), beer at
eclipseCon and other things that matters to the committers.

PaScaL


"Scott Lewis" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slewis@composent.com">&lt;slewis@composent.com&gt;</a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com">news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ed Merks wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">David,

If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they actually
find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue. The
foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things
it might, so that's the problem to be solved...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's posting
was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the *projects*
rather than the *foundation*.

I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users, and
members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
'directional clarity'.

I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea.
What is the harm in having some of the community (users, committers, small
corp members) provide support and direction where they want/need it?



</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
David Williams wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:codeslave@ca.ibm.com">&lt;codeslave@ca.ibm.com&gt;</a>
wrote:


</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?


</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad
idea I think this would be.
So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?

</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre>
</blockquote>
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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7693 is a reply to message #7608] Wed, 22 August 2007 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Williams is currently offline David Williams
Messages: 696
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:45:01 -0400, Scott Lewis <slewis@composent.com> wrote:

> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea. What is the harm inhaving some of the community (users, committers, small corp members) provide support and direction > where they want/need it?

Rest assured, I was just spouting off, and don't mean to rain on any parade of ideas to make Eclipse better. But to me there is not much difference between pay pal like donations and having little banner ads with gofers running back and forth and collecting a few cents for every click ... all in the interest of solving "The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things it might"?!

I know I'm sort of old fashioned, but I'd prefer to see a button that said "click here to donate your time, code or test cases" ... and that link take those contributors to some really good, low-barrier stuff to help them get started and involved.

I think, just from my own little point of view mind you, is that the bigger problem is too few code contributions for "cool stuff" rather than too little money for "cool stuff".
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7714 is a reply to message #7693] Wed, 22 August 2007 10:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

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David,

Yes, the cheesiness of money grubbing is a bit of a concern. Perhaps
Mike could find out how effective this mechanism is for other
organizations. If it's a fairly effective mechanism then I would argue
that what's being provided for free at Eclipse has enough value to
justify asking for donations and that perhaps we could swallow a bit of
our pride. On the plus side, we could offset the argument made at one
of the EclipseCon's keynotes that when it's free it's worthless. :-P

Certainly active participation is one of the most effective ways to
contribute, if not the most effective way, but be careful about just a
call for contributions. Some of us have small teams that can't handle
contributions without associated long term committers. Also keep in
mind that everyone wants to do cool new stuff, but the majority of the
time is spent on doing the less cool stuff like service, maintenance,
support, not to mention the dreaded documentation (which is something
most easily contributed yet is also in short supply).

A problem like the foundation's lack of sufficient staff to process IP
reviews in a timely manner is certain a major problem for many projects
and is also a fairly large barrier to contribution. This problem seems
to require more funding. Similarly the need for webmasters and other
infrastructure maintainers. Money is the grease the keeps the wheels in
motion...


David Williams wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:45:01 -0400, Scott Lewis <slewis@composent.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea. What is the harm inhaving some of the community (users, committers, small corp members) provide support and direction > where they want/need it?
>>
>
> Rest assured, I was just spouting off, and don't mean to rain on any parade of ideas to make Eclipse better. But to me there is not much difference between pay pal like donations and having little banner ads with gofers running back and forth and collecting a few cents for every click ... all in the interest of solving "The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things it might"?!
>
> I know I'm sort of old fashioned, but I'd prefer to see a button that said "click here to donate your time, code or test cases" ... and that link take those contributors to some really good, low-barrier stuff to help them get started and involved.
>
> I think, just from my own little point of view mind you, is that the bigger problem is too few code contributions for "cool stuff" rather than too little money for "cool stuff".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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David,<br>
<br>
Yes, the cheesiness of money grubbing is a bit of a concern.&nbsp; Perhaps
Mike could find out how effective this mechanism is for other
organizations.&nbsp; If it's a fairly effective mechanism then I would argue
that what's being provided for free at Eclipse has enough value to
justify asking for donations and that perhaps we could swallow a bit of
our pride.&nbsp;&nbsp; On the plus side, we could offset the argument made at one
of the EclipseCon's keynotes that when it's free it's worthless. :-P&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Certainly active participation is one of the most effective ways to
contribute, if not the most effective way, but be careful about just a
call for contributions.&nbsp; Some of us have small teams that can't handle
contributions without associated long term committers.&nbsp; Also keep in
mind that everyone wants to do cool new stuff, but the majority of the
time is spent on doing the less cool stuff like service, maintenance,
support, not to mention the dreaded documentation (which is something
most easily contributed yet is also in short supply).&nbsp; <br>
<br>
A problem like the foundation's lack of sufficient staff to process IP
reviews in a timely manner is certain a major problem for many projects
and is also a fairly large barrier to contribution. This problem seems
to require more funding.&nbsp; Similarly the need for webmasters and other
infrastructure maintainers.&nbsp; Money is the grease the keeps the wheels
in motion...<br>
<br>
<br>
David Williams wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:op.txf8qbz0ac05ss@dmw2t23.ibm.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:45:01 -0400, Scott Lewis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slewis@composent.com">&lt;slewis@composent.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea. What is the harm inhaving some of the community (users, committers, small corp members) provide support and direction &gt; where they want/need it?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Rest assured, I was just spouting off, and don't mean to rain on any parade of ideas to make Eclipse better. But to me there is not much difference between pay pal like donations and having little banner ads with gofers running back and forth and collecting a few cents for every click ... all in the interest of solving "The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things it might"?!

I know I'm sort of old fashioned, but I'd prefer to see a button that said "click here to donate your time, code or test cases" ... and that link take those contributors to some really good, low-barrier stuff to help them get started and involved.

I think, just from my own little point of view mind you, is that the bigger problem is too few code contributions for "cool stuff" rather than too little money for "cool stuff".







</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7735 is a reply to message #6072] Tue, 28 August 2007 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: donald.eclipse.org

Instead of PayPal, what would the community reaction be to injecting some
Google ads in tasteful and benign locations on eclipse.org? We have been
running some Google Ads on http://eclipseplugincentral.com for a few
months now and have been getting a decent cash flow (google forbids
sharing details, but it's enough money that's it's worth continuing) PLUS
the ecosystem benefits by having a fair way to promote themselves in
places they otherwise would not (feedback has been positive from
advertisers). There has been a hiccup or two (i.e., a few days of ads
looking for actors in Will Ferrell movies), but generally it has worked
great.

Based on back-of-the-envelope projections, a low-profile eclipse.org
campaign might pay for a few months bandwidth each year (but since we
already budget and pay for that, the money could go to better uses like
supporting University programs, etc).

Thoughts?

- Don
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7754 is a reply to message #7735] Tue, 28 August 2007 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: zx.us.ibm.com

Hrmmm, I don't know how to be tasteful with the ads... I don't know of
many open source projects that employ this approach. However, there are
some that seek donations...

http://www.debian.org/donations
http://www.gentoo.org

Mozilla.org has no mention of donations...

Cheers,

~ Chris
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7774 is a reply to message #7754] Tue, 28 August 2007 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

Chris,

I agree that it seems odd for a non-profit organization to host
advertisement. I can imagine the adds for NetBeans already! :-p


Chris Aniszczyk wrote:
> Hrmmm, I don't know how to be tasteful with the ads... I don't know of
> many open source projects that employ this approach. However, there
> are some that seek donations...
>
> http://www.debian.org/donations
> http://www.gentoo.org
>
> Mozilla.org has no mention of donations...
>
> Cheers,
>
> ~ Chris
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7795 is a reply to message #7774] Wed, 29 August 2007 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: donald.eclipse.org

But in fact, with the direction of the board, we have been running Google
ads on Eclipse properties for over 6 months -- you see the reports monthly
in your KPI's. Check out EclipsePluginCentral.com - proof Google ads can
be quite tastefully placed. And it is very easy to weed out inappropriate
ads, so no visual studio ads, etc.

As someone pointed out to me this morning -- the value of the ads really
isn't so much about the money - it's about leveraging alternatives for
increasing the visibility of Eclipse-based products and technologies on
www.eclipse.org.

Adsense has a lot of stuff built into it that makes is quite a nice option:

Fairness
Auction system and randomness
Applicability (making sure the right links are on the right pages)
Looks for relevance on the page to associate with the right
Keeping up to date
Links are generated automatically in real time
Technology
Javascript easy to embed in pages
Unobtrusiveness
AdSense offers lots of layout flexibility

- Don
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7812 is a reply to message #7795] Wed, 29 August 2007 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

Don,

I must admit they are so tasteful I would hardly notice them. We really
should reconsider. More money can always be put to good use and Eclipse
would be a good place for commercial vendors to advertise their cool
Eclipse applications. Sure Eclipse is about free software, but it's
also about creating a commercially viable infrastructure, so we ought to
be more open minded about this. As long as these ads don't popup, don't
make sounds---computers are generally meant to be seen and not
heard---and don't contain offensive content, they seem innocuous.

I'll try to bring up the paypal issue and this related issue at the next
board meeting.


Donald Smith wrote:
> But in fact, with the direction of the board, we have been running
> Google ads on Eclipse properties for over 6 months -- you see the
> reports monthly in your KPI's. Check out EclipsePluginCentral.com -
> proof Google ads can be quite tastefully placed. And it is very easy
> to weed out inappropriate ads, so no visual studio ads, etc.
>
> As someone pointed out to me this morning -- the value of the ads
> really isn't so much about the money - it's about leveraging
> alternatives for increasing the visibility of Eclipse-based products
> and technologies on www.eclipse.org.
>
> Adsense has a lot of stuff built into it that makes is quite a nice
> option:
>
> Fairness
> Auction system and randomness
> Applicability (making sure the right links are on the right pages)
> Looks for relevance on the page to associate with the right Keeping up
> to date
> Links are generated automatically in real time
> Technology
> Javascript easy to embed in pages
> Unobtrusiveness
> AdSense offers lots of layout flexibility
>
> - Don
>
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7833 is a reply to message #7795] Wed, 29 August 2007 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: zx.us.ibm.com

Donald, if you open a bug against this on the website and with some
possible layout screenshots it would be interesting to see how it would
look like. At least it will get the discussion out of this newsgroup.

Cheers,

~ Chris
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7854 is a reply to message #7812] Fri, 31 August 2007 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pascal Rapicault is currently offline Pascal Rapicault
Messages: 290
Registered: July 2009
Location: Ottawa
Senior Member
And also if we needed more money we could get all the committers to click on
the ad once in a while from their home computers :-) Or even have bots...
Well, we now have illimited budget!

"Ed Merks" <merks@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:fb3sec$779$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Don,
>
> I must admit they are so tasteful I would hardly notice them. We really
> should reconsider. More money can always be put to good use and Eclipse
> would be a good place for commercial vendors to advertise their cool
> Eclipse applications. Sure Eclipse is about free software, but it's also
> about creating a commercially viable infrastructure, so we ought to be
> more open minded about this. As long as these ads don't popup, don't make
> sounds---computers are generally meant to be seen and not heard---and
> don't contain offensive content, they seem innocuous.
>
> I'll try to bring up the paypal issue and this related issue at the next
> board meeting.
>
>
> Donald Smith wrote:
>> But in fact, with the direction of the board, we have been running Google
>> ads on Eclipse properties for over 6 months -- you see the reports
>> monthly in your KPI's. Check out EclipsePluginCentral.com - proof Google
>> ads can be quite tastefully placed. And it is very easy to weed out
>> inappropriate ads, so no visual studio ads, etc.
>>
>> As someone pointed out to me this morning -- the value of the ads really
>> isn't so much about the money - it's about leveraging alternatives for
>> increasing the visibility of Eclipse-based products and technologies on
>> www.eclipse.org.
>>
>> Adsense has a lot of stuff built into it that makes is quite a nice
>> option:
>>
>> Fairness
>> Auction system and randomness
>> Applicability (making sure the right links are on the right pages)
>> Looks for relevance on the page to associate with the right Keeping up to
>> date
>> Links are generated automatically in real time
>> Technology
>> Javascript easy to embed in pages
>> Unobtrusiveness
>> AdSense offers lots of layout flexibility
>>
>> - Don
>>
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #7876 is a reply to message #7854] Fri, 31 August 2007 20:57 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

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Pascal,

You've unveiled our evil plan in public! O:-) I was going to click
on an ad every time I hit refresh in Thunderbird, but now my IP will be
closely monitored!


Pascal Rapicault wrote:
> And also if we needed more money we could get all the committers to click on
> the ad once in a while from their home computers :-) Or even have bots...
> Well, we now have illimited budget!
>
> "Ed Merks" <merks@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:fb3sec$779$1@build.eclipse.org...
>
>> Don,
>>
>> I must admit they are so tasteful I would hardly notice them. We really
>> should reconsider. More money can always be put to good use and Eclipse
>> would be a good place for commercial vendors to advertise their cool
>> Eclipse applications. Sure Eclipse is about free software, but it's also
>> about creating a commercially viable infrastructure, so we ought to be
>> more open minded about this. As long as these ads don't popup, don't make
>> sounds---computers are generally meant to be seen and not heard---and
>> don't contain offensive content, they seem innocuous.
>>
>> I'll try to bring up the paypal issue and this related issue at the next
>> board meeting.
>>
>>
>> Donald Smith wrote:
>>
>>> But in fact, with the direction of the board, we have been running Google
>>> ads on Eclipse properties for over 6 months -- you see the reports
>>> monthly in your KPI's. Check out EclipsePluginCentral.com - proof Google
>>> ads can be quite tastefully placed. And it is very easy to weed out
>>> inappropriate ads, so no visual studio ads, etc.
>>>
>>> As someone pointed out to me this morning -- the value of the ads really
>>> isn't so much about the money - it's about leveraging alternatives for
>>> increasing the visibility of Eclipse-based products and technologies on
>>> www.eclipse.org.
>>>
>>> Adsense has a lot of stuff built into it that makes is quite a nice
>>> option:
>>>
>>> Fairness
>>> Auction system and randomness
>>> Applicability (making sure the right links are on the right pages)
>>> Looks for relevance on the page to associate with the right Keeping up to
>>> date
>>> Links are generated automatically in real time
>>> Technology
>>> Javascript easy to embed in pages
>>> Unobtrusiveness
>>> AdSense offers lots of layout flexibility
>>>
>>> - Don
>>>
>>>
>
>
>


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Pascal,<br>
<br>
You've unveiled our evil plan in public!<span class="moz-smiley-s14"><span>
O:-)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span>&nbsp; I was going to click on an ad every time I
hit refresh in Thunderbird, but now my IP will be closely monitored!<br>
<br>
<br>
Pascal Rapicault wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:fb9tk9$qu6$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">And also if we needed more money we could get all the committers to click on
the ad once in a while from their home computers :-) Or even have bots...
Well, we now have illimited budget!

"Ed Merks" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:merks@ca.ibm.com">&lt;merks@ca.ibm.com&gt;</a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:fb3sec$779$1@build.eclipse.org">news:fb3sec$779$1@build.eclipse.org</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Don,

I must admit they are so tasteful I would hardly notice them. We really
should reconsider. More money can always be put to good use and Eclipse
would be a good place for commercial vendors to advertise their cool
Eclipse applications. Sure Eclipse is about free software, but it's also
about creating a commercially viable infrastructure, so we ought to be
more open minded about this. As long as these ads don't popup, don't make
sounds---computers are generally meant to be seen and not heard---and
don't contain offensive content, they seem innocuous.

I'll try to bring up the paypal issue and this related issue at the next
board meeting.


Donald Smith wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">But in fact, with the direction of the board, we have been running Google
ads on Eclipse properties for over 6 months -- you see the reports
monthly in your KPI's. Check out EclipsePluginCentral.com - proof Google
ads can be quite tastefully placed. And it is very easy to weed out
inappropriate ads, so no visual studio ads, etc.

As someone pointed out to me this morning -- the value of the ads really
isn't so much about the money - it's about leveraging alternatives for
increasing the visibility of Eclipse-based products and technologies on
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.eclipse.org">www.eclipse.org</a>.

Adsense has a lot of stuff built into it that makes is quite a nice
option:

Fairness
Auction system and randomness
Applicability (making sure the right links are on the right pages)
Looks for relevance on the page to associate with the right Keeping up to
date
Links are generated automatically in real time
Technology
Javascript easy to embed in pages
Unobtrusiveness
AdSense offers lots of layout flexibility

- Don

</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre>
</blockquote>
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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560442 is a reply to message #6072] Wed, 01 August 2007 19:22 Go to previous message
Konstantin Komissarchik is currently offline Konstantin Komissarchik
Messages: 14
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hey Nick,

This suggestion comes up ever so often and was even was mentioned in
passing at one of the recent board meetings, but no one took it and
tried to make a concrete proposal out of it.

One of the problems is what to do with the money. Due to the way Eclipse
is setup, I do not believe there is a way to let people direct money to
individual projects. Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
they track/use the money anyway. That leaves directing the money to the
Foundation, either in the general budget or for specific items that
aren't getting funded or aren't getting funded enough from the general
budget. I prefer the second one since if people know how their money is
to be used, they are more likely to donate. The EMO would then be
responsible for proposing/adjusting donation categories and
administering the money that is donated.

Some ideas for donation categories...

* Infrastructure. Includes bandwith, hardware, etc.
* IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
Average.
* Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
hooked early.
* Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
Half the money at project completion. Something like that.

- Konstantin
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560449 is a reply to message #6088] Wed, 01 August 2007 19:39 Go to previous message
Nick Boldt is currently offline Nick Boldt
Messages: 480
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
> they track/use the money anyway.

I was just thinking of a paypal account set up per project, so if you
wanted to "buy" a new feature, you could not only vote for it, but pay
for it too. Presumably the account would be opened by the project or
component lead, who would distribute the funds to others on that team.

> * IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
> contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
> Average.

Then why not an Orbit bucket? Many people would benefit from having more
IP-clean 3rd party stuff available for use under the EPL.

> * Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
> hooked early.

Sorta like Micro$oft does with its "donations" to universities? 'Teach
your CS classes C# and we'll give you a million bucks.' Yeah, we could
do the same, if we had deep pockets like they do.

> * Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
> scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
> employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
> EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
> proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
> they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
> Half the money at project completion. Something like that.

Sounds a bit like the Google Summer of Code [1] or a Foundation-funded
version of Bug Day [2].

[1] http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC
[2] http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay

Anyway, great ideas, thanks. Glad to see I'm not the only one that
thinks this might work.

Nick
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560533 is a reply to message #6103] Thu, 02 August 2007 19:14 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed Merks
Messages: 26054
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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Guys,

I think it would be interesting to bring this up at a board meeting as a
serious proposal in order to gauge people's reactions. Even at a penny
per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I often joke about
"If only I had a penny for every EMF download." Making the foundation
less dependent on the membership dues would be a good thing for
everyone, I think...

I know I'm taking it completely out of context, but Kosta's comment
about "/One of the problems is what to do with the money/" made me
laugh. What's a world without humor though? I'll be more than happy to
help anyone who doesn't know what to do with the money! :-)

Personally I think the money should go into the "greater good fund" and
should be used to enhance and support the infrastructure used by the
committers and the community at large. I can imagine that trying to
earmark donations and targeting them appropriately would easily become a
problem in and of itself, and I think that's partly Kosta's point. Note
that I believe donations would be tax deductible, so that would be an
interesting thing way for folks to multiply their generous contributions...

I'm not sure what would compel people to donate money for something they
get for free anyway, so it would be interesting to find out from other
organizations how effective this technique really is for them. (It does
have that vague feeling of panhandling.)


Nick Boldt wrote:
> Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>
>> Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
>> they track/use the money anyway.
>>
>
> I was just thinking of a paypal account set up per project, so if you
> wanted to "buy" a new feature, you could not only vote for it, but pay
> for it too. Presumably the account would be opened by the project or
> component lead, who would distribute the funds to others on that team.
>
>
>> * IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
>> contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
>> Average.
>>
>
> Then why not an Orbit bucket? Many people would benefit from having more
> IP-clean 3rd party stuff available for use under the EPL.
>
>
>> * Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
>> hooked early.
>>
>
> Sorta like Micro$oft does with its "donations" to universities? 'Teach
> your CS classes C# and we'll give you a million bucks.' Yeah, we could
> do the same, if we had deep pockets like they do.
>
>
>> * Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
>> scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
>> employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
>> EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
>> proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
>> they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
>> Half the money at project completion. Something like that.
>>
>
> Sounds a bit like the Google Summer of Code [1] or a Foundation-funded
> version of Bug Day [2].
>
> [1] http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC
> [2] http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay
>
> Anyway, great ideas, thanks. Glad to see I'm not the only one that
> thinks this might work.
>
> Nick
>


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Guys,<br>
<br>
I think it would be interesting to bring this up at a board meeting as
a serious proposal in order to gauge people's reactions.&nbsp; Even at a
penny per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I often joke
about "If only I had a penny for every EMF download."&nbsp; Making the
foundation less dependent on the membership dues would be a good thing
for everyone, I think...<br>
<br>
I know I'm taking it completely out of context, but Kosta's comment
about "<i>One of the problems is what to do with the money</i>" made me
laugh.&nbsp; What's a world without humor though?&nbsp; I'll be more than happy
to help anyone who doesn't know what to do with the money!&nbsp; :-) <br>
<br>
Personally I think the money should go into the "greater good fund" and
should be used to enhance and support the infrastructure used by the
committers and the community at large.&nbsp; I can imagine that trying to
earmark donations and targeting them appropriately would easily become
a problem in and of itself, and I think that's partly Kosta's point.&nbsp;
Note that I believe donations would be tax deductible, so that would be
an interesting thing way for folks to multiply their generous
contributions...<br>
<br>
I'm not sure what would compel people to donate money for something
they get for free anyway, so it would be interesting to find out from
other organizations how effective this technique really is for them.&nbsp;
(It does have that vague feeling of panhandling.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Nick Boldt wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:f8qnhv$qfs$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Projects don't have bank accounts and how would
they track/use the money anyway.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
I was just thinking of a paypal account set up per project, so if you
wanted to "buy" a new feature, you could not only vote for it, but pay
for it too. Presumably the account would be opened by the project or
component lead, who would distribute the funds to others on that team.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">* IP Review. We can try, but I doubt we will find many people
contributing to this category since this doesn't directly benefit Joe
Average.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Then why not an Orbit bucket? Many people would benefit from having more
IP-clean 3rd party stuff available for use under the EPL.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">* Eclipse outreach to educational institutions. Let's try to get people
hooked early.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Sorta like Micro$oft does with its "donations" to universities? 'Teach
your CS classes C# and we'll give you a million bucks.' Yeah, we could
do the same, if we had deep pockets like they do.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">* Scholarships. Take the money that is donated, divide it up into X
scholarships. Hold a competition where you ask people (those not
employed by member companies) to submit a proposal for some new feature.
EMO (with the help from relevant PMCs) would then select among the
proposals based on feasibility (how likely are they to accomplish what
they've proposed) and on value to Eclipse. Half the money at the start.
Half the money at project completion. Something like that.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Sounds a bit like the Google Summer of Code [1] or a Foundation-funded
version of Bug Day [2].

[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC">http://wiki.eclipse.org/GSOC</a>
[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay">http://wiki.eclipse.org/BugDay</a>

Anyway, great ideas, thanks. Glad to see I'm not the only one that
thinks this might work.

Nick
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------000301020002050507040204--
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560542 is a reply to message #6283] Thu, 02 August 2007 21:29 Go to previous message
Darin Swanson is currently offline Darin Swanson
Messages: 2386
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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I am still waiting for a penny for every Ant build that occurs within / =
from Eclipse.
:-)

"Ed Merks" <merks@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message =
news:f8tafu$bmg$1@build.eclipse.org...
Guys,

Even at a penny per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I =
often joke about "If only I had a penny for every EMF download." =20

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am still waiting for a penny for =
every Ant build=20
that occurs within / from&nbsp;Eclipse.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"Ed Merks" &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:merks@ca.ibm.com">merks@ca.ibm.com</A>&gt;=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:f8tafu$bmg$1@build.eclipse.org">news:f8tafu$bmg$1@build.ecli=
pse.org</A>...</DIV>Guys,<BR><BR>Even=20
at a penny per download, Eclipse could fund a lot of things and I =
often joke=20
about "If only I had a penny for every EMF download."&nbsp;=20
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560545 is a reply to message #6283] Fri, 03 August 2007 17:00 Go to previous message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Eclipse is a 501(c)6 corporation
( http://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/Eclipse%20BYLAWS%202003 _11_10%20Final.pdf).
There are interesting rules around 501(c)6 (see
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopick03.pdf) including "No part of
its net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or
individual" and that the contributions are not tax-deductible
(http://www.give.org/tips/tax.asp#501c6).

So "not tax deductible" and "can't be spent on members/committers". At
least that's the way I read it. Maybe the solution is to form a second
501(c)3 corporation (the Eclipse Foundation Foundation?) to handle
donations...
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560552 is a reply to message #6072] Tue, 07 August 2007 03:28 Go to previous message
David Williams is currently offline David Williams
Messages: 696
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

>
> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>

Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560561 is a reply to message #7538] Tue, 07 August 2007 11:37 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed Merks
Messages: 26054
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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David,

If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they
actually find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue.
The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool
things it might, so that's the problem to be solved...


David Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>
>>
>
> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>


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David,<br>
<br>
If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many
other open source organizations do it.&nbsp; In particular I wonder if they
actually find that it's an effective way to generate additional
revenue. &nbsp; The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all
the cool things it might, so that's the problem to be solved...<br>
<br>
<br>
David Williams wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:op.twn6mhd8ac05ss@dmw2t23.ibm.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:codeslave@ca.ibm.com">&lt;codeslave@ca.ibm.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?

</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------090907020907000309000403--
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560568 is a reply to message #7533] Wed, 15 August 2007 20:18 Go to previous message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Bjorn,

I believe you are misunderstanding the IRS verbiage. "No part of its net
earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual"
does not mean that we could not mean we cannot spend money on
members/committers. What it means is that we cannot have shareholders and
distribute profits (aka net earnings) to any person.

We could actually use money for doing the types of things Nick and
Konstantin and others have suggested, if we (the community, the board)
decided that it was a good idea to do so.

The "not tax-deductible" part is definitely true. But to be honest, I am not
sure that that would be an issue for people. Firstly, even if we were a
charity, only U.S. citizens could claim their donations in any event.
Secondly, for many people the tax deduction is a non-issue for small
donations.

Personally, I think that paying for a bug fix or feature would be a
complicated and dangerous thing to do at Eclipse, but many of the other
ideas are worthy.

"Bjorn Freeman-Benson" <bjorn.freeman-benson@eclipse.org> wrote in message
news:46B35F41.1030501@eclipse.org...
> Eclipse is a 501(c)6 corporation
> ( http://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/Eclipse%20BYLAWS%202003 _11_10%20Final.pdf).
> There are interesting rules around 501(c)6 (see
> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopick03.pdf) including "No part of its
> net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or
> individual" and that the contributions are not tax-deductible
> (http://www.give.org/tips/tax.asp#501c6).
>
> So "not tax deductible" and "can't be spent on members/committers". At
> least that's the way I read it. Maybe the solution is to form a second
> 501(c)3 corporation (the Eclipse Foundation Foundation?) to handle
> donations...
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560573 is a reply to message #7550] Wed, 15 August 2007 20:22 Go to previous message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Yeesh. I need to proof read better.

"...does not mean that we could not mean we cannot spend money on
members/committers." should read "...does not mean that we cannot spend
money on members/committers."
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560579 is a reply to message #7550] Fri, 17 August 2007 06:02 Go to previous message
Bjorn Freeman-Benson is currently offline Bjorn Freeman-Benson
Messages: 335
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I believe you are misunderstanding the IRS verbiage.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time :-)
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560584 is a reply to message #7543] Fri, 17 August 2007 17:45 Go to previous message
Scott Lewis is currently offline Scott Lewis
Messages: 970
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Ed Merks wrote:
> David,
>
> If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
> open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they
> actually find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue.
> The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool
> things it might, so that's the problem to be solved...

Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's
posting was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the
*projects* rather than the *foundation*.

I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users,
and members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
'directional clarity'.

I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor
idea. What is the harm in having some of the community (users,
committers, small corp members) provide support and direction where they
want/need it?



>
>
> David Williams wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad idea I think this would be.
>> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>>
>
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560592 is a reply to message #7608] Sat, 18 August 2007 02:33 Go to previous message
Pascal Rapicault is currently offline Pascal Rapicault
Messages: 440
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
The problem with financing a project is that the money has to go through the
foundation and I seem to recall a clause somewhere in the status of the
foundation that says that they can't finance any development activity (which
is why the foundation can't have SOC like initiative and pay the students,
or employ full time committers ). Therefore even if it was possible to
direct the money to a particular project, I would imagine that the spendings
would have to be very carefully monitored, thus putting an additional burden
on the foundation...

Overall I like the idea of paypal. However making it available on a
per-project basis will just kill the donator. I would rather see one big
bucket and let the money be managed by committer representatives to pay
things like awards, coop for the foundation to work on infrastructure if it
is necessary (note that this is not code as mentioned above), beer at
eclipseCon and other things that matters to the committers.

PaScaL


"Scott Lewis" <slewis@composent.com> wrote in message
news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com...
> Ed Merks wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
>> open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they actually
>> find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue. The
>> foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things
>> it might, so that's the problem to be solved...
>
> Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
> to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's posting
> was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the *projects*
> rather than the *foundation*.
>
> I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users, and
> members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
> useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
> 'directional clarity'.
>
> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea.
> What is the harm in having some of the community (users, committers, small
> corp members) provide support and direction where they want/need it?
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> David Williams wrote:
>>> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>>>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>>>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad
>>> idea I think this would be.
>>> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>>>
>>
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560596 is a reply to message #7629] Sat, 18 August 2007 12:51 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed Merks
Messages: 26054
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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Pascal,

I don't think there's a clause saying they can't fund development
activity, otherwise they could not develop things like phoenix. I think
what it roughly says (I should find it to be sure of the exact words,
but hey, it's Saturday) that member organizations must fund their own
employees and that the foundation itself must not fund the members
directly. So, for example, the foundation should not fund travel for
committer reps since their own organizations should do that.

In any case, I think ear marking the funds would be problematic to
manage even though it has a certain appeal as a way of funding
particular projects. I think it would be much easier to manage a global
fund, as you suggest, that would help build infrastructure that's useful
for all committers. Although it's nice to fund things like
scholarships, I don't think the foundation is so well funded that it can
start acting as a charity. Of course scholarships might be used as a
way to fund development work, i.e., your coop idea is a good one! The
key point to me is that funds be exploited to build up and support the
infrastructure used by committers and by the general consuming public.
I know free beer is always a popular topic, but that I wouldn't fund so
generously! :-P


Pascal Rapicault wrote:
> The problem with financing a project is that the money has to go through the
> foundation and I seem to recall a clause somewhere in the status of the
> foundation that says that they can't finance any development activity (which
> is why the foundation can't have SOC like initiative and pay the students,
> or employ full time committers ). Therefore even if it was possible to
> direct the money to a particular project, I would imagine that the spendings
> would have to be very carefully monitored, thus putting an additional burden
> on the foundation...
>
> Overall I like the idea of paypal. However making it available on a
> per-project basis will just kill the donator. I would rather see one big
> bucket and let the money be managed by committer representatives to pay
> things like awards, coop for the foundation to work on infrastructure if it
> is necessary (note that this is not code as mentioned above), beer at
> eclipseCon and other things that matters to the committers.
>
> PaScaL
>
>
> "Scott Lewis" <slewis@composent.com> wrote in message
> news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com...
>
>> Ed Merks wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
>>> open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they actually
>>> find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue. The
>>> foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things
>>> it might, so that's the problem to be solved...
>>>
>> Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
>> to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's posting
>> was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the *projects*
>> rather than the *foundation*.
>>
>> I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users, and
>> members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
>> useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
>> 'directional clarity'.
>>
>> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea.
>> What is the harm in having some of the community (users, committers, small
>> corp members) provide support and direction where they want/need it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> David Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <codeslave@ca.ibm.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
>>>>> Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
>>>>> Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad
>>>> idea I think this would be.
>>>> So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>


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Pascal,<br>
<br>
I don't think there's a clause saying they can't fund development
activity, otherwise they could not develop things like phoenix.&nbsp; I
think what it roughly says (I should find it to be sure of the exact
words, but hey, it's Saturday) that member organizations must fund
their own employees and that the foundation itself must not fund the
members directly.&nbsp; So, for example, the foundation should not fund
travel for committer reps since their own organizations should do
that.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
In any case, I think ear marking the funds would be problematic to
manage even though it has a certain appeal as a way of funding
particular projects.&nbsp; I think it would be much easier to manage a
global fund, as you suggest, that would help build infrastructure
that's useful for all committers.&nbsp; Although it's nice to fund things
like scholarships, I don't think the foundation is so well funded that
it can start acting as a charity.&nbsp; Of course scholarships might be used
as a way to fund development work, i.e., your coop idea is a good one!&nbsp;
The key point to me is that funds be exploited to build up and support
the infrastructure used by committers and by the general consuming
public.&nbsp; I know free beer is always a popular topic, but that I
wouldn't fund so generously!&nbsp; :-P<br>
<br>
<br>
Pascal Rapicault wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:fa5ls0$uhc$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The problem with financing a project is that the money has to go through the
foundation and I seem to recall a clause somewhere in the status of the
foundation that says that they can't finance any development activity (which
is why the foundation can't have SOC like initiative and pay the students,
or employ full time committers ). Therefore even if it was possible to
direct the money to a particular project, I would imagine that the spendings
would have to be very carefully monitored, thus putting an additional burden
on the foundation...

Overall I like the idea of paypal. However making it available on a
per-project basis will just kill the donator. I would rather see one big
bucket and let the money be managed by committer representatives to pay
things like awards, coop for the foundation to work on infrastructure if it
is necessary (note that this is not code as mentioned above), beer at
eclipseCon and other things that matters to the committers.

PaScaL


"Scott Lewis" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slewis@composent.com">&lt;slewis@composent.com&gt;</a> wrote in message
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com">news:46C5DE9D.4090509@composent.com</a>...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ed Merks wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">David,

If it's such an indescribably bad idea, I'd be curious why so many other
open source organizations do it. In particular I wonder if they actually
find that it's an effective way to generate additional revenue. The
foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things
it might, so that's the problem to be solved...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Although I agree that the foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds
to do all the things it might, I think the original problem Nick's posting
was getting at was finding ways to support and direct the *projects*
rather than the *foundation*.

I think figuring out ways to connect the community (committers, users, and
members) more closely with supporting the projects they value is
useful...both in terms of funding and in terms of getting unbiased
'directional clarity'.

I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea.
What is the harm in having some of the community (users, committers, small
corp members) provide support and direction where they want/need it?



</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
David Williams wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0400, Nick Boldt <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:codeslave@ca.ibm.com">&lt;codeslave@ca.ibm.com&gt;</a>
wrote:


</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm curious what the committer reps think of this idea, and what ways
Eclipse could make more money in order to benefit the community more?
Selling DVDs? Schwag? Subscriptions? Tax-deductable donations?


</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Well, I'm no committer rep, but I can't begin to describe what a bad
idea I think this would be.
So, instead, I'll just ask, what problem is attempting to be solved?

</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre>
</blockquote>
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Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560612 is a reply to message #7608] Wed, 22 August 2007 07:07 Go to previous message
David Williams is currently offline David Williams
Messages: 696
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:45:01 -0400, Scott Lewis <slewis@composent.com> wrote:

> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea. What is the harm inhaving some of the community (users, committers, small corp members) provide support and direction > where they want/need it?

Rest assured, I was just spouting off, and don't mean to rain on any parade of ideas to make Eclipse better. But to me there is not much difference between pay pal like donations and having little banner ads with gofers running back and forth and collecting a few cents for every click ... all in the interest of solving "The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things it might"?!

I know I'm sort of old fashioned, but I'd prefer to see a button that said "click here to donate your time, code or test cases" ... and that link take those contributors to some really good, low-barrier stuff to help them get started and involved.

I think, just from my own little point of view mind you, is that the bigger problem is too few code contributions for "cool stuff" rather than too little money for "cool stuff".
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560618 is a reply to message #7693] Wed, 22 August 2007 10:21 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed Merks
Messages: 26054
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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David,

Yes, the cheesiness of money grubbing is a bit of a concern. Perhaps
Mike could find out how effective this mechanism is for other
organizations. If it's a fairly effective mechanism then I would argue
that what's being provided for free at Eclipse has enough value to
justify asking for donations and that perhaps we could swallow a bit of
our pride. On the plus side, we could offset the argument made at one
of the EclipseCon's keynotes that when it's free it's worthless. :-P

Certainly active participation is one of the most effective ways to
contribute, if not the most effective way, but be careful about just a
call for contributions. Some of us have small teams that can't handle
contributions without associated long term committers. Also keep in
mind that everyone wants to do cool new stuff, but the majority of the
time is spent on doing the less cool stuff like service, maintenance,
support, not to mention the dreaded documentation (which is something
most easily contributed yet is also in short supply).

A problem like the foundation's lack of sufficient staff to process IP
reviews in a timely manner is certain a major problem for many projects
and is also a fairly large barrier to contribution. This problem seems
to require more funding. Similarly the need for webmasters and other
infrastructure maintainers. Money is the grease the keeps the wheels in
motion...


David Williams wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:45:01 -0400, Scott Lewis <slewis@composent.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea. What is the harm inhaving some of the community (users, committers, small corp members) provide support and direction > where they want/need it?
>>
>
> Rest assured, I was just spouting off, and don't mean to rain on any parade of ideas to make Eclipse better. But to me there is not much difference between pay pal like donations and having little banner ads with gofers running back and forth and collecting a few cents for every click ... all in the interest of solving "The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things it might"?!
>
> I know I'm sort of old fashioned, but I'd prefer to see a button that said "click here to donate your time, code or test cases" ... and that link take those contributors to some really good, low-barrier stuff to help them get started and involved.
>
> I think, just from my own little point of view mind you, is that the bigger problem is too few code contributions for "cool stuff" rather than too little money for "cool stuff".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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David,<br>
<br>
Yes, the cheesiness of money grubbing is a bit of a concern.&nbsp; Perhaps
Mike could find out how effective this mechanism is for other
organizations.&nbsp; If it's a fairly effective mechanism then I would argue
that what's being provided for free at Eclipse has enough value to
justify asking for donations and that perhaps we could swallow a bit of
our pride.&nbsp;&nbsp; On the plus side, we could offset the argument made at one
of the EclipseCon's keynotes that when it's free it's worthless. :-P&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Certainly active participation is one of the most effective ways to
contribute, if not the most effective way, but be careful about just a
call for contributions.&nbsp; Some of us have small teams that can't handle
contributions without associated long term committers.&nbsp; Also keep in
mind that everyone wants to do cool new stuff, but the majority of the
time is spent on doing the less cool stuff like service, maintenance,
support, not to mention the dreaded documentation (which is something
most easily contributed yet is also in short supply).&nbsp; <br>
<br>
A problem like the foundation's lack of sufficient staff to process IP
reviews in a timely manner is certain a major problem for many projects
and is also a fairly large barrier to contribution. This problem seems
to require more funding.&nbsp; Similarly the need for webmasters and other
infrastructure maintainers.&nbsp; Money is the grease the keeps the wheels
in motion...<br>
<br>
<br>
David Williams wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:op.txf8qbz0ac05ss@dmw2t23.ibm.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:45:01 -0400, Scott Lewis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slewis@composent.com">&lt;slewis@composent.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm puzzled by David's comment as to why he thinks it's such a poor idea. What is the harm inhaving some of the community (users, committers, small corp members) provide support and direction &gt; where they want/need it?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Rest assured, I was just spouting off, and don't mean to rain on any parade of ideas to make Eclipse better. But to me there is not much difference between pay pal like donations and having little banner ads with gofers running back and forth and collecting a few cents for every click ... all in the interest of solving "The foundation often doesn't have sufficient funds to do all the cool things it might"?!

I know I'm sort of old fashioned, but I'd prefer to see a button that said "click here to donate your time, code or test cases" ... and that link take those contributors to some really good, low-barrier stuff to help them get started and involved.

I think, just from my own little point of view mind you, is that the bigger problem is too few code contributions for "cool stuff" rather than too little money for "cool stuff".







</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
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--------------030106070703060608070900--
Re: RFC: Eclipse does Paypal? [message #560626 is a reply to message #6072] Tue, 28 August 2007 14:17 Go to previous message
Donald Smith is currently offline Donald Smith
Messages: 14
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Instead of PayPal, what would the community reaction be to injecting some
Google ads in tasteful and benign locations on eclipse.org? We have been
running some Google Ads on http://eclipseplugincentral.com for a few
months now and have been getting a decent cash flow (google forbids
sharing details, but it's enough money that's it's worth continuing) PLUS
the ecosystem benefits by having a fair way to promote themselves in
places they otherwise would not (feedback has been positive from
advertisers). There has been a hiccup or two (i.e., a few days of ads
looking for actors in Will Ferrell movies), but generally it has worked
great.

Based on back-of-the-envelope projections, a low-profile eclipse.org
campaign might pay for a few months bandwidth each year (but since we
already budget and pay for that, the money could go to better uses like
supporting University programs, etc).

Thoughts?

- Don
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