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icon14.gif  Should UML be MDD or agile ? [message #677068] Tue, 07 June 2011 13:09 Go to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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This forum is sleeping therefore I have decided to launch a new topic.

Should UML be Model Driven Development or Agile ?
Let's talk about it.

PS: If you don't understand what is MDD or Agile then let me know. thx

[Updated on: Tue, 07 June 2011 13:11]

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(no subject) [message #677130 is a reply to message #677068] Tue, 07 June 2011 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Willink is currently offline Ed WillinkFriend
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Hi Vlad

I would very much like UML tooling to support Agile, so that you can
experiment.

A tool chain that takes months to progress through the bureaucracy is
not interesting to me.

I think Agile MDD is what we're struggling for.
- EMF made structural model generation/usage Agile
- Xtext makes simple DSL Agile
- Acceleo makes simple M2T Agile
- ?? OCL in Indigo starts to make behavioural model generation Agile

I see the fuller UML and M2M as needing significant further work.

Regards

Ed Willink

On 07/06/2011 14:09, Vlad Varnica wrote:
> This forum is sleeping therefore I have decided to launch a new topic.
>
> Should UML be Model Driven Development or Agile ?
> Let's talk about it.
>
(no subject) [message #677139 is a reply to message #677068] Tue, 07 June 2011 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
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Vlad,

UML itself shouldn't dictate the development methodology any more than
should Java. Either should be usable with whatever methodology is best
suited for the task at hand. I'm sure you'll argue Omondo makes UML
agile and I'm sure you'll agree that there are those who use UML
following the OMG's MDA methodology employing tools such as RSM. So it's
clearly the case that UML can be used with either approach.

Oddly though, your question seems to imply that MDD and Agile are to be
juxtaposed, i.e., as if driving development with models can't possibly
be done in an agile way. That seems clearly false.


Vlad Varnica wrote:
> This forum is sleeping therefore I have decided to launch a new topic.
>
> Should UML be Model Driven Development or Agile ?
> Let's talk about it.
>
Re: (no subject) [message #677247 is a reply to message #677139] Tue, 07 June 2011 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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Ed,

Yes, we all agree that UML should not dictate the methodology.
My problem is that Model Driven Development as well as RUP are not anymore used in new java projects.
What did change and why in the last few years ?

Re: (no subject) [message #677256 is a reply to message #677247] Tue, 07 June 2011 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26289
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Vlad,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Vlad Varnica wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:ism84n$8b8$1@news.eclipse.org" type="cite">Ed,
<br>
<br>
Yes, we all agree that UML should not dictate the methodology.
<br>
</blockquote>
I must have completely missed the point of your question about "Should
UML be MDD or Agile" then.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:ism84n$8b8$1@news.eclipse.org" type="cite">My
problem is that Model Driven Development as well as RUP are not anymore
used in new java projects.</blockquote>
It's not? You know about <b>all </b>new Java projects and what
they're using?<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:ism84n$8b8$1@news.eclipse.org" type="cite"><br>
What did  change and why in the last few years ? <br>
</blockquote>
My impression is that MDD is more used now than it was years ago, but
of course that's just based on what I see as increasingly wide spread
use of Eclipse modeling technologies.<br>
</body>
</html>
Re: (no subject) [message #677345 is a reply to message #677256] Wed, 08 June 2011 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
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Ed,

I agree that more and more Eclipse projects are concerned by MDD but it seems to me that there are less and less interest and users.
If you look at the number of posts or how many readers then you will see that in the last three years the number has dropped by over 50%.
Why ? any idea

It seems to me that MDD is not anymore considered as a new technology therefore less readers are looking for information. Unfortunately the research and financial investments have not been done till today in order to move from an early adopter community to a larger dissemination.
If the modeling projects are not anymore in there early stage but have not reached the needed maturity then I would say "What next ?"
Re: (no subject) [message #677507 is a reply to message #677345] Wed, 08 June 2011 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26289
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I agree that more and more Eclipse projects are concerned by MDD but
> it seems to me that there are less and less interest and users.
Really?
> If you look at the number of posts or how many readers then you will
> see that in the last three years the number has dropped by over 50%.
Which newsgroups are you looking at? EMF is ever popular (especially
CDO) and the TMF newsgroup (which is mostly about Xtext) is typically
the most active at Eclipse often generating more posts (and more
consistent answers) than even the platform or newcomers newsgroup.
> Why ? any idea
Probably you're looking a lot at the UML newsgroup. I don't believe
there is significant growing interest in UML.
>
> It seems to me that MDD is not anymore considered as a new technology
We'll it's certainly not a new concept anymore.
> therefore less readers are looking for information.
As the forums fill up with questions and answers, you'd hope there'd be
no need to repeat those same questions....
> Unfortunately the research
Research? You mean like at universities?
> and financial investments have not been done till today
You mean someone is doing it today, finally?
> in order to move from an early adopter community to a larger
> dissemination.
Certainly there is much room for broader adoption of MDD strategies, I
think that's growing significantly in Germany and in France, but in
other regions, particularly North America, there seem to be cultural
biases against being so formal and rigorous...
> If the modeling projects are not anymore in there early stage but have
> not reached the needed maturity then I would say "What next ?"
We discussed such things at CodeGen 2011. How better to educate people
and evangelize these technologies... One of the things I pointed out was
that we're often our own worst enemies by appearing to be over zealous
fanatics with panacea solutions to all the ills of the world. Someone
even suggested we should rebrand MDD as kind of an ultra Agile
methodology; that kind of bogus marketing makes me feel sick....
Re: (no subject) [message #677729 is a reply to message #677507] Thu, 09 June 2011 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
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Location: Milton Keynes - UK
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Ed,

My answer below:

Ed said: Which newsgroups are you looking at? EMF is ever popular (especially
CDO) and the TMF newsgroup (which is mostly about Xtext) is typically
the most active at Eclipse often generating more posts (and more
consistent answers) than even the platform or newcomers newsgroup.

Vlad answer: Compare to the year June 2005 to June 2006 the EMF number of clicks have dropped by over 50%

Ed said: Certainly there is much room for broader adoption of MDD strategies, I
think that's growing significantly in Germany and in France, but in
other regions, particularly North America, there seem to be cultural
biases against being so formal and rigorous...

Vlad answer: If a technology is not adopted in North America it means it will never be adopted on large scale by others. After 10 years Model Driven development has not been adopted except by very few France and Germany companies usually using public funds . MDD technologies will therefore never be as a real profitable market.


Ed said: We discussed such things at CodeGen 2011. How better to educate people
and evangelize these technologies... One of the things I pointed out was
that we're often our own worst enemies by appearing to be over zealous
fanatics with panacea solutions to all the ills of the world. Someone
even suggested we should rebrand MDD as kind of an ultra Agile
methodology; that kind of bogus marketing makes me feel sick....

Vlad answer: I would recommend you not to feel sick too much because this is just the beginning of the end of MDD. MDD is mediocre and has never bring any value to software development. Only dreaming stories of software vendors or consulting companies are taking advantages of fullish companies !!

[Updated on: Thu, 09 June 2011 09:06]

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Re: (no subject) [message #677784 is a reply to message #677729] Thu, 09 June 2011 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Neustupny is currently offline Thomas NeustupnyFriend
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Member
I believe what happened to MDD is a normal process: when it was (more or less) a hype, then it was tried to be applied in many domains. Later, when advantages/disadvantages became clear and the hype was over, then MDD became a known technique only applied in areas where one benefits from it. So it's normal that it's getting less attention. And I too believe that MDD shouldn't be used for any problem, because it has it's characteristic weaknesses (at least in direct comparisons with alternative approaches).

Don't know if there is any relation between MDD, UML and agile development. (Apples and pears?)
Re: (no subject) [message #677806 is a reply to message #677784] Thu, 09 June 2011 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
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Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
Hi Thomas,

Uml is a graphical language which could be used with any methodology.
RUP methodology was really good 15 years ago and was included UML and MDD. Unfortunately the new Agile method which has replaced RUP do not really have any UML recommendation and is in opposition with traditional MDD (e.g Model Driven development from Model to code).
This is the reason why I talk about MDD/RUP versus Agile with the use of UML for both methodologies.
Re: (no subject) [message #681707 is a reply to message #677729] Thu, 09 June 2011 16:50 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26289
Registered: July 2009
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Ed,
>
> My answer below:
>
> Which newsgroups are you looking at? EMF is ever popular (especially
> CDO) and the TMF newsgroup (which is mostly about Xtext) is typically
> the most active at Eclipse often generating more posts (and more
> consistent answers) than even the platform or newcomers newsgroup.
> Compare to the year June 2005 to June 2006 the EMF number of clicks
> have dropped by over 50%
Clicks? I use NNTP and I count posts.
>
> Certainly there is much room for broader adoption of MDD strategies, I
> think that's growing significantly in Germany and in France, but in
> other regions, particularly North America, there seem to be cultural
> biases against being so formal and rigorous...
> If a technology is not adopted in North America it means it will never
> be adopted on large scale by others.
I think DSLs (models by another name) will have more traction in a
culture that is averse to UML.
> After 10 years Model Driven development has not been adopted except by
> very few France and Germany companies usually using public funds . MDD
> technologies will therefore never be as a real profitable market.
It's significantly used in the automotive industry (just to name one
sector) and without public funding.

Profitable markets are an orthogonal issue. Is there a long term
profitable market for Java IDEs? I don't think so. But that doesn't
imply Java IDEs aren't broadly adopted or that they have failed in some
way...
>
>
> We discussed such things at CodeGen 2011. How better to educate people
> and evangelize these technologies... One of the things I pointed out was
> that we're often our own worst enemies by appearing to be over zealous
> fanatics with panacea solutions to all the ills of the world. Someone
> even suggested we should rebrand MDD as kind of an ultra Agile
> methodology; that kind of bogus marketing makes me feel sick....
> I would recommend you not to feel sick too much because this is just
> the beginning of the end of MDD.
Now you're a soothsayer. Hopefully you're not hearing voices...
> MDD is mediocre and has never bring any value to software development.
Didn't you use it to build your tools from a model for UML2?
> Only dreaming stories of software vendors or consulting companies are
> taking advantages of fullish companies !!
You mean foolish? You should let the Swiss banks and the German
automotive companies know about this outrage as soon as possible!
Either that or you might consider taking your medication more consistently.
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