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Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #66972] Fri, 18 March 2005 03:19 Go to next message
Ed Warnicke is currently offline Ed Warnicke
Messages: 6
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
In evaluating Eclipse for internal use at Cisco Systems
we have observed that:

Java Support is excellent.

C/C++ Support is coming along nicely.

Dynamically Typed Languages (Python,Perl,Tcl,Ruby,PHP)
support is spotty.

We would like to see that change.

I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
project for acheiving the following purposes:

1) Improving the state of support for developing
in Dynamically Typed Languages (like Python,
Perl, Tcl, Ruby, PHP, etc) in Eclipse.
2) Working out a framework for developing Eclipse
Plugins in Dynamically Typed Languages that
can be hosted on the JVM (like Jython, Jacl,
and JRuby).

In conjunction with this I would like to seek parties
interested in forming an Eclipse Dynamic Consortium to
jointly fund full time development staff to support this project.

Thoughts?

Ed Warnicke
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #66981 is a reply to message #66972] Fri, 18 March 2005 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

That sounds good. Is there some overlap with the proposed LDT project
(eclipse.technology.ldt newsgroup)? There is a lot to do just to get
basic support for any language, static or dynamic. Should we understand
you just want to focus on the dynamic aspects?

Bob Foster

Ed Warnicke wrote:
> In evaluating Eclipse for internal use at Cisco Systems
> we have observed that:
>
> Java Support is excellent.
>
> C/C++ Support is coming along nicely.
>
> Dynamically Typed Languages (Python,Perl,Tcl,Ruby,PHP)
> support is spotty.
>
> We would like to see that change.
>
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> 1) Improving the state of support for developing
> in Dynamically Typed Languages (like Python,
> Perl, Tcl, Ruby, PHP, etc) in Eclipse.
> 2) Working out a framework for developing Eclipse
> Plugins in Dynamically Typed Languages that
> can be hosted on the JVM (like Jython, Jacl,
> and JRuby).
>
> In conjunction with this I would like to seek parties
> interested in forming an Eclipse Dynamic Consortium to
> jointly fund full time development staff to support this project.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ed Warnicke
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #66988 is a reply to message #66972] Fri, 18 March 2005 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: john-mason.shackelford.org

Ed,

Could you be more specific about the features that such a project would
contribute? Clearly Dynamically Typed languages impose unique challenges
particularly when it comes to content assist and error annotations, but
what sorts of infrastructure specific to dynamically typed languages do
you believe could be shared across different languages?

This topic certainly interests me as in the last year I have migrated
from Java to Ruby for nearly 100% of my coding.


John-Mason P. Shackelford
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #66998 is a reply to message #66981] Sat, 19 March 2005 06:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: JoelWest.users.sourceforge.net

Bob Foster wrote:
> That sounds good. Is there some overlap with the proposed LDT project
> (eclipse.technology.ldt newsgroup)? There is a lot to do just to get
> basic support for any language, static or dynamic. Should we understand
> you just want to focus on the dynamic aspects?

In our BOF at EclipseCon, we discussed this issue. If we're lucky, the
LDT will be ahead of us and we can gladly reduce our workload and
leverage off of it. If not, we might temporarily fork ala JDT/CDT.

At this point we are trying to scope out the work. We also hope by
putting our requirements on the table that we can work with the LDT to
make sure these languages are incorporated into their design goals, even
if there are parts of the dynamic language support that the LDT has no
plans to address (such as content assist).

Joel West
http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/west_j
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67005 is a reply to message #66981] Sat, 19 March 2005 06:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: JoelWest.users.sourceforge.net

Bob Foster wrote:
> That sounds good. Is there some overlap with the proposed LDT project
> (eclipse.technology.ldt newsgroup)? There is a lot to do just to get
> basic support for any language, static or dynamic. Should we understand
> you just want to focus on the dynamic aspects?

In our BOF at EclipseCon, we discussed this issue. If we're lucky, the
LDT will be ahead of us and we can gladly reduce our workload and
leverage off of it. If not, we might temporarily fork ala JDT/CDT.

At this point we are trying to scope out the work. We also hope by
putting our requirements on the table that we can work with the LDT to
make sure these languages are incorporated into their design goals, even
if there are parts of the dynamic language support that the LDT has no
plans to address (such as content assist).

Joel West
http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/west_j
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67042 is a reply to message #66972] Wed, 23 March 2005 08:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andre Meyer is currently offline Andre Meyer
Messages: 2
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Ed

I can only full-heartedly support this initiative. As a Python developer
I use PyDev (http://pydev.sourceforge.net/) with much pleasure and
success. Providing more functionality on a more general level would be
excellent. Features like code completion, validation, browsing, etc.
would be easier to implement.

thanks and kind regards
André


Ed Warnicke wrote:
> In evaluating Eclipse for internal use at Cisco Systems
> we have observed that:
>
> Java Support is excellent.
>
> C/C++ Support is coming along nicely.
>
> Dynamically Typed Languages (Python,Perl,Tcl,Ruby,PHP)
> support is spotty.
>
> We would like to see that change.
>
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> 1) Improving the state of support for developing
> in Dynamically Typed Languages (like Python,
> Perl, Tcl, Ruby, PHP, etc) in Eclipse.
> 2) Working out a framework for developing Eclipse
> Plugins in Dynamically Typed Languages that
> can be hosted on the JVM (like Jython, Jacl,
> and JRuby).
>
> In conjunction with this I would like to seek parties
> interested in forming an Eclipse Dynamic Consortium to
> jointly fund full time development staff to support this project.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ed Warnicke
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67051 is a reply to message #66972] Wed, 23 March 2005 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fabio Zadrozny is currently offline Fabio Zadrozny
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Ed...

as for 1), I think that I'm missing what kind of stuff would this be
different from maintaining the standard languages (maybe you can explain
this a little better).

Surely, non-typed languages have some additional penalties, e.g.:
discovering the type of somthing is really hard at times, and the
flexibility is so that sometimes it is almost impossible...

But I'm missing to see how that could be solved in a generic level, only
for dynamic languages, as I think most problems are targeted for all
languages and not just dynamic, now, having said that, I believe that
there are many things that can be done to better support languages
(dynamic and not dynamic)...

2) I think that's a great idea, I haven't got into that in PyDev, but I
should in the future, and I can see a lot of overlap from the Java
tools, especially in code completion and code analysis, configuring the
java vm, paths... and I think most (but not all) of the effort would be
getting some parts of the Java tools public for other plugins.

Regards,

Fabio Zadrozny
------------------------------------------------------
Software Developer

ESSS - Engineering Simulation and Scientific Software
www.esss.com.br

PyDev - Python Development Enviroment for Eclipse
pydev.sf.net
pydev.blogspot.com


Ed Warnicke wrote:
> In evaluating Eclipse for internal use at Cisco Systems
> we have observed that:
>
> Java Support is excellent.
>
> C/C++ Support is coming along nicely.
>
> Dynamically Typed Languages (Python,Perl,Tcl,Ruby,PHP)
> support is spotty.
>
> We would like to see that change.
>
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> 1) Improving the state of support for developing
> in Dynamically Typed Languages (like Python,
> Perl, Tcl, Ruby, PHP, etc) in Eclipse.
> 2) Working out a framework for developing Eclipse
> Plugins in Dynamically Typed Languages that
> can be hosted on the JVM (like Jython, Jacl,
> and JRuby).
>
> In conjunction with this I would like to seek parties
> interested in forming an Eclipse Dynamic Consortium to
> jointly fund full time development staff to support this project.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ed Warnicke
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67068 is a reply to message #66972] Tue, 29 March 2005 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: cwillia1.rochester.rr.com

Well, as a primary contributor and maintainer of RDT I think this would be
great - but I am a bit biased.

Clearly Eclipse has been pushed as a platform for IDEs across langauges
and even as a Rich Client Platform. While it has been slowly used for
both, I think support for creating IDEs, particularly for the increasingly
popular dynamic languages, would benefit the platform and the community at
large.

There is a great deal of work involved in getting a language properly
supported within Eclipse. While I can't foresee all the details as to how
we'd generically implement dynamic language support, I do see that there
could be much work done to provide a simpler API for new languages. As
those who may have peeked at our source, much of the code we use in our
core of RDT has been shamelessly copied and pasted from the JDT and then
trimmed and modified as we go.

As we move forward I fully expect agile/dynamic languages to become more
mainstream, we should focus our attention on helping the many users
switching or trying out these languages. There's a particular glut of
really good IDEs out there which is holding back a great deal of
developers from trying these languages out - or from being able to
convince their manager that the language isn't a toy.

Thanks,
Chris
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67094 is a reply to message #66972] Mon, 18 April 2005 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Funk is currently offline Tom Funk
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Ed Warnicke wrote:
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:

Has this died on the vine?

The questions from the prior posts seem to have gone mostly unanswered
(paraphrasing: do we really need a new technology project? What's
different about DTLs, vs STLs, that is missing from Eclipse today?). Was
the questioning perceived as an attack and the idea abandoned? If so,
this is unfortunate.

I'm a Java/Jython/Python developer, am eyeing Ruby and Lisp (no flames,
please), and would love to see stronger support for Python
(specifically) and other dynamically typed languages (Groove, Ruby,
Perl, Lisp, etc.) in Eclipse.

Whether this support comes from a new technology project, or from a
sub-project/work group in an existing technology project, is secondary
to the theme of the original post: to extend support of dynamically
typed languages.

Has interest died, or did the discussion move (i.e. to LDT) and I just
missed it?

thx

-=< tom >=-
Tom Funk
Germantown, MD
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67104 is a reply to message #67094] Tue, 19 April 2005 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I can tell you that this idea is definitely not dead. The questioning was
not perceived as an attack. There is lots of interest in making something
happen in this area.

I've been doing some recruiting in the background. I am sure that we are
going to have something going in this area in the not-too-distant future.

"Tom Funk" <tdfunk@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:d40a2j$arn$1@news.eclipse.org...
> Ed Warnicke wrote:
>> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
>> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
>> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> Has this died on the vine?
>
> The questions from the prior posts seem to have gone mostly unanswered
> (paraphrasing: do we really need a new technology project? What's
> different about DTLs, vs STLs, that is missing from Eclipse today?). Was
> the questioning perceived as an attack and the idea abandoned? If so,
> this is unfortunate.
>
> I'm a Java/Jython/Python developer, am eyeing Ruby and Lisp (no flames,
> please), and would love to see stronger support for Python
> (specifically) and other dynamically typed languages (Groove, Ruby,
> Perl, Lisp, etc.) in Eclipse.
>
> Whether this support comes from a new technology project, or from a
> sub-project/work group in an existing technology project, is secondary
> to the theme of the original post: to extend support of dynamically
> typed languages.
>
> Has interest died, or did the discussion move (i.e. to LDT) and I just
> missed it?
>
> thx
>
> -=< tom >=-
> Tom Funk
> Germantown, MD
>
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67114 is a reply to message #67104] Thu, 21 April 2005 17:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Funk is currently offline Tom Funk
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I can tell you that this idea is definitely not dead.

Good news.

> I am sure that we are going to have something going
> in this area in the not-too-distant future.

I'd like to follow progress and perhaps assist in some way, if I can.

Please keep us posted when something substantial breaks.

Thanks.

-=< tom >=-
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67132 is a reply to message #67094] Tue, 26 April 2005 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: JoelWest.users.sourceforge.net

Tom Funk wrote:
>
> Has this died on the vine?

As Mike said, this has not died, but efforts are going on in the
background to marshall the necessary resources to make it happen.
>
> The questions from the prior posts seem to have gone mostly unanswered
> (paraphrasing: do we really need a new technology project? What's
> different about DTLs, vs STLs, that is missing from Eclipse today?).

One key question is the relationship to the LDT. We need to get our
resources and work out our requirements, and then see to what degree
those requirements will be addressed by the LDT. My personal guess is
that we will benefit from some of the multi-language support and perhaps
making syntax highlighting more general, but this will require pulling
together deep knowledge of both the relevant languages and Eclipse's
approach towards language support.

> Has interest died, or did the discussion move (i.e. to LDT) and I just
> missed it?

Once we get something to announce, we will post it to here and the LDT
group. Please feel free to contact me directly in the meantime.

Joel
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #67142 is a reply to message #67132] Mon, 02 May 2005 16:11 Go to previous message
Tom Funk is currently offline Tom Funk
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Joel West wrote:
> One key question is the relationship to the LDT. We need to get our
> resources and work out our requirements, and then see to what degree
> those requirements will be addressed by the LDT.

Seems to me, at least on the face of it, that the LDT group will speak
to a broader set of issues (i.e., support for *all* languages) that
would be a superset of the issues focused on by a DTL group.

I can see that there would necessarily be quite a bit of cross-talk
between the two groups.

> My personal guess is
> that we will benefit from some of the multi-language support and perhaps
> making syntax highlighting more general, but this will require pulling
> together deep knowledge of both the relevant languages and Eclipse's
> approach towards language support.

Based a quick read of the LDT's proposal, syntax highlighting would be
only one area that a DTL group would benefit from LDT "spin-offs" -- or
could contribute to the state of the art. Another area that seems
interesting to me, from a DTL perspective, is the idea of making
debuggers even more dynamic and interactive than they are now.

I've spent quite a bit of time programming in the Visual Studio IDE.
When using VB, especially, the GUI debugger is excellent, going beyond
any of the Python GUI debuggers I've used (Python is my DTL of choice) .
Within certain bounds (for instance, you can't create new, or rename,
variables), you can modify the source in a number ways (beyond just
changing a variable's value) and the debugger sees and reacts to the
change -- without stopping the debugger (some of these capabilities are
due toe VB being statically typed, as with trapping variable name
errors). I've yet to run across the same level of sophistication (and
miss it) in the Python debuggers I've used (otoh, maybe I just haven't
used the right Python IDE, yet).

Another place I see value is in testing and refactoring. An abstraction
of a testing framework would be most cool. An abstraction of the various
refactoring patterns would be a beautiful thing. What little I know of
Eclipse so far is that these are currently implemented by each
language-specific plug-in (for instance, in the JDT).

Whether such features come from the LDT, or a DTL group, will have to be
noodled out as we move forward. Both groups will likely have to work
fairly closely, perhaps solving overlapping concerns.

> Once we get something to announce, we will post it to here and the LDT
> group.

I check back every few days.

> Please feel free to contact me directly in the meantime.

OK. Thanks.

-=< tom >=-
Tom Funk
Germantown, MD
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598528 is a reply to message #66972] Fri, 18 March 2005 08:55 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: bob.objfac.com

That sounds good. Is there some overlap with the proposed LDT project
(eclipse.technology.ldt newsgroup)? There is a lot to do just to get
basic support for any language, static or dynamic. Should we understand
you just want to focus on the dynamic aspects?

Bob Foster

Ed Warnicke wrote:
> In evaluating Eclipse for internal use at Cisco Systems
> we have observed that:
>
> Java Support is excellent.
>
> C/C++ Support is coming along nicely.
>
> Dynamically Typed Languages (Python,Perl,Tcl,Ruby,PHP)
> support is spotty.
>
> We would like to see that change.
>
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> 1) Improving the state of support for developing
> in Dynamically Typed Languages (like Python,
> Perl, Tcl, Ruby, PHP, etc) in Eclipse.
> 2) Working out a framework for developing Eclipse
> Plugins in Dynamically Typed Languages that
> can be hosted on the JVM (like Jython, Jacl,
> and JRuby).
>
> In conjunction with this I would like to seek parties
> interested in forming an Eclipse Dynamic Consortium to
> jointly fund full time development staff to support this project.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ed Warnicke
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598534 is a reply to message #66972] Fri, 18 March 2005 16:33 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: john-mason.shackelford.org

Ed,

Could you be more specific about the features that such a project would
contribute? Clearly Dynamically Typed languages impose unique challenges
particularly when it comes to content assist and error annotations, but
what sorts of infrastructure specific to dynamically typed languages do
you believe could be shared across different languages?

This topic certainly interests me as in the last year I have migrated
from Java to Ruby for nearly 100% of my coding.


John-Mason P. Shackelford
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598536 is a reply to message #66981] Sat, 19 March 2005 06:05 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: JoelWest.users.sourceforge.net

Bob Foster wrote:
> That sounds good. Is there some overlap with the proposed LDT project
> (eclipse.technology.ldt newsgroup)? There is a lot to do just to get
> basic support for any language, static or dynamic. Should we understand
> you just want to focus on the dynamic aspects?

In our BOF at EclipseCon, we discussed this issue. If we're lucky, the
LDT will be ahead of us and we can gladly reduce our workload and
leverage off of it. If not, we might temporarily fork ala JDT/CDT.

At this point we are trying to scope out the work. We also hope by
putting our requirements on the table that we can work with the LDT to
make sure these languages are incorporated into their design goals, even
if there are parts of the dynamic language support that the LDT has no
plans to address (such as content assist).

Joel West
http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/west_j
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598544 is a reply to message #66981] Sat, 19 March 2005 06:06 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: JoelWest.users.sourceforge.net

Bob Foster wrote:
> That sounds good. Is there some overlap with the proposed LDT project
> (eclipse.technology.ldt newsgroup)? There is a lot to do just to get
> basic support for any language, static or dynamic. Should we understand
> you just want to focus on the dynamic aspects?

In our BOF at EclipseCon, we discussed this issue. If we're lucky, the
LDT will be ahead of us and we can gladly reduce our workload and
leverage off of it. If not, we might temporarily fork ala JDT/CDT.

At this point we are trying to scope out the work. We also hope by
putting our requirements on the table that we can work with the LDT to
make sure these languages are incorporated into their design goals, even
if there are parts of the dynamic language support that the LDT has no
plans to address (such as content assist).

Joel West
http://www.cob.sjsu.edu/west_j
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598557 is a reply to message #66972] Wed, 23 March 2005 08:59 Go to previous message
Andre Meyer is currently offline Andre Meyer
Messages: 2
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Ed

I can only full-heartedly support this initiative. As a Python developer
I use PyDev (http://pydev.sourceforge.net/) with much pleasure and
success. Providing more functionality on a more general level would be
excellent. Features like code completion, validation, browsing, etc.
would be easier to implement.

thanks and kind regards
André


Ed Warnicke wrote:
> In evaluating Eclipse for internal use at Cisco Systems
> we have observed that:
>
> Java Support is excellent.
>
> C/C++ Support is coming along nicely.
>
> Dynamically Typed Languages (Python,Perl,Tcl,Ruby,PHP)
> support is spotty.
>
> We would like to see that change.
>
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> 1) Improving the state of support for developing
> in Dynamically Typed Languages (like Python,
> Perl, Tcl, Ruby, PHP, etc) in Eclipse.
> 2) Working out a framework for developing Eclipse
> Plugins in Dynamically Typed Languages that
> can be hosted on the JVM (like Jython, Jacl,
> and JRuby).
>
> In conjunction with this I would like to seek parties
> interested in forming an Eclipse Dynamic Consortium to
> jointly fund full time development staff to support this project.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ed Warnicke
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598563 is a reply to message #66972] Wed, 23 March 2005 16:26 Go to previous message
Fabio Zadrozny is currently offline Fabio Zadrozny
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi Ed...

as for 1), I think that I'm missing what kind of stuff would this be
different from maintaining the standard languages (maybe you can explain
this a little better).

Surely, non-typed languages have some additional penalties, e.g.:
discovering the type of somthing is really hard at times, and the
flexibility is so that sometimes it is almost impossible...

But I'm missing to see how that could be solved in a generic level, only
for dynamic languages, as I think most problems are targeted for all
languages and not just dynamic, now, having said that, I believe that
there are many things that can be done to better support languages
(dynamic and not dynamic)...

2) I think that's a great idea, I haven't got into that in PyDev, but I
should in the future, and I can see a lot of overlap from the Java
tools, especially in code completion and code analysis, configuring the
java vm, paths... and I think most (but not all) of the effort would be
getting some parts of the Java tools public for other plugins.

Regards,

Fabio Zadrozny
------------------------------------------------------
Software Developer

ESSS - Engineering Simulation and Scientific Software
www.esss.com.br

PyDev - Python Development Enviroment for Eclipse
pydev.sf.net
pydev.blogspot.com


Ed Warnicke wrote:
> In evaluating Eclipse for internal use at Cisco Systems
> we have observed that:
>
> Java Support is excellent.
>
> C/C++ Support is coming along nicely.
>
> Dynamically Typed Languages (Python,Perl,Tcl,Ruby,PHP)
> support is spotty.
>
> We would like to see that change.
>
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> 1) Improving the state of support for developing
> in Dynamically Typed Languages (like Python,
> Perl, Tcl, Ruby, PHP, etc) in Eclipse.
> 2) Working out a framework for developing Eclipse
> Plugins in Dynamically Typed Languages that
> can be hosted on the JVM (like Jython, Jacl,
> and JRuby).
>
> In conjunction with this I would like to seek parties
> interested in forming an Eclipse Dynamic Consortium to
> jointly fund full time development staff to support this project.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ed Warnicke
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598575 is a reply to message #66972] Tue, 29 March 2005 00:05 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: cwillia1.rochester.rr.com

Well, as a primary contributor and maintainer of RDT I think this would be
great - but I am a bit biased.

Clearly Eclipse has been pushed as a platform for IDEs across langauges
and even as a Rich Client Platform. While it has been slowly used for
both, I think support for creating IDEs, particularly for the increasingly
popular dynamic languages, would benefit the platform and the community at
large.

There is a great deal of work involved in getting a language properly
supported within Eclipse. While I can't foresee all the details as to how
we'd generically implement dynamic language support, I do see that there
could be much work done to provide a simpler API for new languages. As
those who may have peeked at our source, much of the code we use in our
core of RDT has been shamelessly copied and pasted from the JDT and then
trimmed and modified as we go.

As we move forward I fully expect agile/dynamic languages to become more
mainstream, we should focus our attention on helping the many users
switching or trying out these languages. There's a particular glut of
really good IDEs out there which is holding back a great deal of
developers from trying these languages out - or from being able to
convince their manager that the language isn't a toy.

Thanks,
Chris
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598599 is a reply to message #66972] Mon, 18 April 2005 12:36 Go to previous message
Tom Funk is currently offline Tom Funk
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Ed Warnicke wrote:
> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
> project for acheiving the following purposes:

Has this died on the vine?

The questions from the prior posts seem to have gone mostly unanswered
(paraphrasing: do we really need a new technology project? What's
different about DTLs, vs STLs, that is missing from Eclipse today?). Was
the questioning perceived as an attack and the idea abandoned? If so,
this is unfortunate.

I'm a Java/Jython/Python developer, am eyeing Ruby and Lisp (no flames,
please), and would love to see stronger support for Python
(specifically) and other dynamically typed languages (Groove, Ruby,
Perl, Lisp, etc.) in Eclipse.

Whether this support comes from a new technology project, or from a
sub-project/work group in an existing technology project, is secondary
to the theme of the original post: to extend support of dynamically
typed languages.

Has interest died, or did the discussion move (i.e. to LDT) and I just
missed it?

thx

-=< tom >=-
Tom Funk
Germantown, MD
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598604 is a reply to message #67094] Tue, 19 April 2005 20:18 Go to previous message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I can tell you that this idea is definitely not dead. The questioning was
not perceived as an attack. There is lots of interest in making something
happen in this area.

I've been doing some recruiting in the background. I am sure that we are
going to have something going in this area in the not-too-distant future.

"Tom Funk" <tdfunk@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:d40a2j$arn$1@news.eclipse.org...
> Ed Warnicke wrote:
>> I would like to propose that an Eclipse Dynamically Typed
>> Language project be formed under the Eclipse Technology
>> project for acheiving the following purposes:
>
> Has this died on the vine?
>
> The questions from the prior posts seem to have gone mostly unanswered
> (paraphrasing: do we really need a new technology project? What's
> different about DTLs, vs STLs, that is missing from Eclipse today?). Was
> the questioning perceived as an attack and the idea abandoned? If so,
> this is unfortunate.
>
> I'm a Java/Jython/Python developer, am eyeing Ruby and Lisp (no flames,
> please), and would love to see stronger support for Python
> (specifically) and other dynamically typed languages (Groove, Ruby,
> Perl, Lisp, etc.) in Eclipse.
>
> Whether this support comes from a new technology project, or from a
> sub-project/work group in an existing technology project, is secondary
> to the theme of the original post: to extend support of dynamically
> typed languages.
>
> Has interest died, or did the discussion move (i.e. to LDT) and I just
> missed it?
>
> thx
>
> -=< tom >=-
> Tom Funk
> Germantown, MD
>
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598611 is a reply to message #67104] Thu, 21 April 2005 17:36 Go to previous message
Tom Funk is currently offline Tom Funk
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> I can tell you that this idea is definitely not dead.

Good news.

> I am sure that we are going to have something going
> in this area in the not-too-distant future.

I'd like to follow progress and perhaps assist in some way, if I can.

Please keep us posted when something substantial breaks.

Thanks.

-=< tom >=-
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598623 is a reply to message #67094] Tue, 26 April 2005 19:42 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: JoelWest.users.sourceforge.net

Tom Funk wrote:
>
> Has this died on the vine?

As Mike said, this has not died, but efforts are going on in the
background to marshall the necessary resources to make it happen.
>
> The questions from the prior posts seem to have gone mostly unanswered
> (paraphrasing: do we really need a new technology project? What's
> different about DTLs, vs STLs, that is missing from Eclipse today?).

One key question is the relationship to the LDT. We need to get our
resources and work out our requirements, and then see to what degree
those requirements will be addressed by the LDT. My personal guess is
that we will benefit from some of the multi-language support and perhaps
making syntax highlighting more general, but this will require pulling
together deep knowledge of both the relevant languages and Eclipse's
approach towards language support.

> Has interest died, or did the discussion move (i.e. to LDT) and I just
> missed it?

Once we get something to announce, we will post it to here and the LDT
group. Please feel free to contact me directly in the meantime.

Joel
Re: Eclipse Dynamically Typed Language Project: Call for Discussion [message #598628 is a reply to message #67132] Mon, 02 May 2005 16:11 Go to previous message
Tom Funk is currently offline Tom Funk
Messages: 22
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Joel West wrote:
> One key question is the relationship to the LDT. We need to get our
> resources and work out our requirements, and then see to what degree
> those requirements will be addressed by the LDT.

Seems to me, at least on the face of it, that the LDT group will speak
to a broader set of issues (i.e., support for *all* languages) that
would be a superset of the issues focused on by a DTL group.

I can see that there would necessarily be quite a bit of cross-talk
between the two groups.

> My personal guess is
> that we will benefit from some of the multi-language support and perhaps
> making syntax highlighting more general, but this will require pulling
> together deep knowledge of both the relevant languages and Eclipse's
> approach towards language support.

Based a quick read of the LDT's proposal, syntax highlighting would be
only one area that a DTL group would benefit from LDT "spin-offs" -- or
could contribute to the state of the art. Another area that seems
interesting to me, from a DTL perspective, is the idea of making
debuggers even more dynamic and interactive than they are now.

I've spent quite a bit of time programming in the Visual Studio IDE.
When using VB, especially, the GUI debugger is excellent, going beyond
any of the Python GUI debuggers I've used (Python is my DTL of choice) .
Within certain bounds (for instance, you can't create new, or rename,
variables), you can modify the source in a number ways (beyond just
changing a variable's value) and the debugger sees and reacts to the
change -- without stopping the debugger (some of these capabilities are
due toe VB being statically typed, as with trapping variable name
errors). I've yet to run across the same level of sophistication (and
miss it) in the Python debuggers I've used (otoh, maybe I just haven't
used the right Python IDE, yet).

Another place I see value is in testing and refactoring. An abstraction
of a testing framework would be most cool. An abstraction of the various
refactoring patterns would be a beautiful thing. What little I know of
Eclipse so far is that these are currently implemented by each
language-specific plug-in (for instance, in the JDT).

Whether such features come from the LDT, or a DTL group, will have to be
noodled out as we move forward. Both groups will likely have to work
fairly closely, perhaps solving overlapping concerns.

> Once we get something to announce, we will post it to here and the LDT
> group.

I check back every few days.

> Please feel free to contact me directly in the meantime.

OK. Thanks.

-=< tom >=-
Tom Funk
Germantown, MD
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