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Is e4 ready to use in a brand new software project? [message #663754] Wed, 06 April 2011 11:47 Go to next message
Sascha Zak is currently offline Sascha ZakFriend
Messages: 11
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi,

I'm developing Eclipse RCP applications since more than the last two
years. Now I'm going to setup a brand new project and I'm wondering, if
the time is just right (or will become in a future not too far away) to
switch to e4.

I'm not very familiar with e4 and I'm aware, that there will be a lot of
lessons to learn for me when using e4, but I like the new concepts and
want to benefit from them avoiding migration efforts in the future.

The main things I'm interested in are:

- Is (pure) e4 generally at a state to build rcp apps with (currently
with limitations I guess) or when do you believe this state could be
reached?

- Does it make sense to setup a new project now using the compat
layer(s) and if so, what can I do to be prepared when e4 gets ready?

It would be very nice if some of you would share their opinion with me :)
Thanks a lot.

Best regards

Sascha
Re: Is e4 ready to use in a brand new software project? [message #663760 is a reply to message #663754] Wed, 06 April 2011 12:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Webster is currently offline Paul WebsterFriend
Messages: 6859
Registered: July 2009
Location: Ottawa
Senior Member

On 04/06/2011 07:47 AM, Sascha Zak wrote:
> - Is (pure) e4 generally at a state to build rcp apps with (currently
> with limitations I guess) or when do you believe this state could be
> reached?

The short answer is "yes, well it depends" :-)

A pure e4 app currently supports all of the layout you'd expect (windows
with sash containers, stacks, and parts). It supports commands,
handlers, menus, toolbars, and keybindings. There's a lot of Dependency
Injection and dynamic invocation. It supports the new CSS styling as an
integrated part of the app.

But if you want access to some of the traditional RCP support, (like
Help, editor and view management, text editors, resource views,
preference and properties dialogs) they're not available in a pure e4
layer yet.


> - Does it make sense to setup a new project now using the compat
> layer(s) and if so, what can I do to be prepared when e4 gets ready?

Down this route, there are 2 options:

1) write a 3.x RCP app and use the compatibility layer to run in (off of
Eclipse 4.1). One thing you can do in preparation is only use commands,
handlers, and menu contributions (no actionSets, objectContributions, etc).

2) write a 3.x RCP app, using e4 structures where you can and the e4
"forward bridge" which will host an e4 view in a 3.x based workbench.

Good luck,
PW

--
Paul Webster
http://wiki.eclipse.org/Platform_Command_Framework
http://wiki.eclipse.org/Command_Core_Expressions
http://wiki.eclipse.org/Platform_Expression_Framework
http://wiki.eclipse.org/Menu_Contributions
http://wiki.eclipse.org/Menus_Extension_Mapping
http://help.eclipse.org/helios/index.jsp?topic=/org.eclipse. platform.doc.isv/guide/workbench.htm


Re: Is e4 ready to use in a brand new software project? [message #663941 is a reply to message #663760] Wed, 06 April 2011 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Karl Weber is currently offline Karl WeberFriend
Messages: 63
Registered: September 2010
Member
Paul Webster wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 14:26
On 04/06/2011 07:47 AM, Sascha Zak wrote:
> - Is (pure) e4 generally at a state to build rcp apps with (currently
> with limitations I guess) or when do you believe this state could be
> reached?

[...]

But if you want access to some of the traditional RCP support, (like
Help, editor and view management, text editors, resource views,
preference and properties dialogs) they're not available in a pure e4
layer yet.



I read this a couple of times by now, but it was never said when this might be available. I also didn't find any plans on the web-page of e4 either. 4.2? ... 4.3? ...

I got to like this e4, so it is sad we have to wait one (or more) years for it.
Re: Is e4 ready to use in a brand new software project? [message #663979 is a reply to message #663941] Thu, 07 April 2011 05:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin Smit is currently offline Kevin SmitFriend
Messages: 8
Registered: March 2011
Junior Member
I agree, i also asked some questions, for example about the help system. After reading this post i came to the conclusion it is not implemented 'yet'.

For me it is not a real problem because i'm testing e4 for fun, but it would be nice to have a wiki page where we can see an overview of the implemented features.

So maybe a wiki page with a table and some columns:

Eclipse 3.x features; Eclipse 4.x features; implemented yes/no; library 3.x; library 4.x; old feature/new feature

feature 1:
feature 2:

New feature: fore example XWT

Or is there already a page providing this information which i not found yet.
Re: Is e4 ready to use in a brand new software project? [message #664020 is a reply to message #663979] Thu, 07 April 2011 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Schindl is currently offline Thomas SchindlFriend
Messages: 5467
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Karl & Kevin,

I can to some extend understand your fustration but I don't agree with
the conclusion you are drawing. The Eclipse 4 Application Platform
provides you the foundation to build whatever you want.

Take a look out the Simple-IDE (found in CVS) it shows how you can
implement a simple resource navigator and editors (e.g. for Java and
XML) solely using e4 technologies.

One of my plan items for Eclipse 4.2 is to refactor certain parts of the
old platform code (UI-Dialogs, Common Navigator, Console View, ...) so
that they work in a pure e4 environment and integrate them using the e4
bridge.

In 4.1 our main target was to get a rocked solid compat layer so that
all 3.x plugins are still functional in 4.1 and I expect more work will
happen on the Eclipse 4 Application Platform in 4.2 once more.

Eclipse 4 Application Platform provides you with:
* Workbench Model (including Parts)
* DI

There's nothing else it provides at the moment! I've started porting
some of the generic UI-Dialogs while working on the SimpleIDE but they
are not fully functional.

Beside that: If you need a feature in your RCP application not available
come and port it! What I really can't understand is that so many people
put them self in passive operation mode when it comes to OpenSource in
general - that's exactly what open source tried to address.

To get out of this passive mode. Would you like to start such a
wiki-page and collect things you as the RCP expert would like to make
use of and people like me and others can go there and leave informations
e.g. of partial implemented stuff, ... or create bugzillas where we
start providing patches.

Tom

Am 07.04.11 07:02, schrieb Kevin Smit:
> I agree, i also asked some questions, for example about the help system.
> After reading this post i came to the conclusion it is not implemented
> 'yet'.
>
> For me it is not a real problem because i'm testing e4 for fun, but it
> would be nice to have a wiki page where we can see an overview of the
> implemented features.
>
> So maybe a wiki page with a table and some columns:
>
> Eclipse 3.x features; Eclipse 4.x features; implemented
> yes/no; library 3.x; library 4.x; old feature/new feature
>
> feature 1:
> feature 2:
>
> New feature: fore example XWT
>
> Or is there already a page providing this information which i not found
> yet.
Re: Is e4 ready to use in a brand new software project? [message #664030 is a reply to message #664020] Thu, 07 April 2011 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin Smit is currently offline Kevin SmitFriend
Messages: 8
Registered: March 2011
Junior Member
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the reply.

I didn't mean it in a negative form. I like to know more about e4 and i appreciate that there are develpers like you that make much effort in developing new stuff.

I was searching for for a starting point to learn which features are fully implemented or who is working on what, i'm not a diehard java developer, so I will see what i can do to help to extend e4. Any ideas besides testing and bugreports?

Is this the correct page for working area's?

http://wiki.eclipse.org/E4/Work_Areas

or are there other pages

Thanks
Re: Is e4 ready to use in a brand new software project? [message #664077 is a reply to message #663754] Thu, 07 April 2011 12:42 Go to previous message
Remy Suen is currently offline Remy SuenFriend
Messages: 462
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Sascha Zak wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 07:47
- Is (pure) e4 generally at a state to build rcp apps with (currently
with limitations I guess) or when do you believe this state could be
reached?
People have written proprietary applications on top of Eclipse 4 technologies. You may be interested in Benoit and Simon's talk from EclipseCon.
http://informatics-science.blogspot.com/2011/04/back-from-ec lipsecon.html

Kevin Smit wrote on Thu, 07 April 2011 04:56
I was searching for for a starting point to learn which features are fully implemented or who is working on what, i'm not a diehard java developer, so I will see what i can do to help to extend e4. Any ideas besides testing and bugreports?

Is this the correct page for working area's?

http://wiki.eclipse.org/E4/Work_Areas
Might be better to just add stuff to the EAS page.
http://wiki.eclipse.org/E4/Eclipse_Application_Services
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