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Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5561] Thu, 17 May 2007 11:57 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: wayne.beaton._NOSPAM_eclipse.org

I've downloaded and installed this package. Here are some comments (feel
free to throw some of these back at me to work on):

I'd love to see an actual installer. I obviously haven't been keeping up
with this project enough because I recall that there used to be one and
I assume that it's no longer being used for a good reason.

I think that, when opened on a new workspace, it should open in the
"Java perspective" (bug 187568)

I imagine that the Mylar dialog that opens with a new workspace will be
a little confusing for some new users to Eclipse (and some established
users). I think Mylar is a necessary inclusion, but it'd be nice if it
were a little quieter for first time users. Ideally, Mylar should just
set itself up with default options that I assume first time users will
just accept anyway (I tacked this onto bug 187568).

The PDE appears to be included. I didn't expect to see this in this package.

I see plug-ins that support XML editing, but it isn't exposed. There are
dependencies on org.eclipse.emf.common, org.eclipse.emf.ecore.xmi,
org.eclipse.emf.ecore.edit, org.eclipse.perfmsr.core,
org.eclipse.emf.ecore (and others) which aren't included. (Bug 187583)

There is support included for defining servers (though only HTTP Server
is an option). I didn't expect to see this in this package.

Thanks,

Wayne
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5568 is a reply to message #5561] Fri, 18 May 2007 04:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: jkrause.innoopract.com

Wayne,

Thanks for your input. Here is some background info:

http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/epp-dev/msg00021.html

http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cross-project-issues-de v/msg01075.html

Jochen


Wayne Beaton wrote:
> I've downloaded and installed this package. Here are some comments (feel
> free to throw some of these back at me to work on):
>
> I'd love to see an actual installer. I obviously haven't been keeping up
> with this project enough because I recall that there used to be one and
> I assume that it's no longer being used for a good reason.
>
> I think that, when opened on a new workspace, it should open in the
> "Java perspective" (bug 187568)
>
> I imagine that the Mylar dialog that opens with a new workspace will be
> a little confusing for some new users to Eclipse (and some established
> users). I think Mylar is a necessary inclusion, but it'd be nice if it
> were a little quieter for first time users. Ideally, Mylar should just
> set itself up with default options that I assume first time users will
> just accept anyway (I tacked this onto bug 187568).
>
> The PDE appears to be included. I didn't expect to see this in this
> package.
>
> I see plug-ins that support XML editing, but it isn't exposed. There are
> dependencies on org.eclipse.emf.common, org.eclipse.emf.ecore.xmi,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore.edit, org.eclipse.perfmsr.core,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore (and others) which aren't included. (Bug 187583)
>
> There is support included for defining servers (though only HTTP Server
> is an option). I didn't expect to see this in this package.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5583 is a reply to message #5561] Wed, 23 May 2007 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: jkrause.innoopract.com

I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based on
its current status.

http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html

Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?

Jochen

Wayne Beaton wrote:
> I've downloaded and installed this package. Here are some comments (feel
> free to throw some of these back at me to work on):
>
> I'd love to see an actual installer. I obviously haven't been keeping up
> with this project enough because I recall that there used to be one and
> I assume that it's no longer being used for a good reason.
>
> I think that, when opened on a new workspace, it should open in the
> "Java perspective" (bug 187568)
>
> I imagine that the Mylar dialog that opens with a new workspace will be
> a little confusing for some new users to Eclipse (and some established
> users). I think Mylar is a necessary inclusion, but it'd be nice if it
> were a little quieter for first time users. Ideally, Mylar should just
> set itself up with default options that I assume first time users will
> just accept anyway (I tacked this onto bug 187568).
>
> The PDE appears to be included. I didn't expect to see this in this
> package.
>
> I see plug-ins that support XML editing, but it isn't exposed. There are
> dependencies on org.eclipse.emf.common, org.eclipse.emf.ecore.xmi,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore.edit, org.eclipse.perfmsr.core,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore (and others) which aren't included. (Bug 187583)
>
> There is support included for defining servers (though only HTTP Server
> is an option). I didn't expect to see this in this package.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5590 is a reply to message #5583] Wed, 23 May 2007 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ian Skerrett is currently offline Ian Skerrett
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Jochen Krause wrote:

> I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based on
> its current status.

> http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html

> Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?

Can I suggest we delay this decision until Markus returns. I believe the
VE team is close to making available their 3.3 support, so I would like to
give Markus a chance to evaluate it.
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5597 is a reply to message #5590] Wed, 23 May 2007 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: wayne.beaton._NOSPAM_eclipse.org

Ian Skerrett wrote:
> Jochen Krause wrote:
>
>> I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based
>> on its current status.
>
>> http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html
>
>> Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?
>
> Can I suggest we delay this decision until Markus returns. I believe
> the VE team is close to making available their 3.3 support, so I would
> like to give Markus a chance to evaluate it.
>

My feeling is that we need to have an actual release of VE if we're
going to include it in the package. I have some cycles that I will
dedicate to testing VE; hopefully this can be helpful in getting VE
ready for Europa.

I agree with Ian that we should defer making this decision for a while...

Wayne
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5604 is a reply to message #5597] Thu, 07 June 2007 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: mknauer.innoopract.com

Wayne Beaton wrote:

> Ian Skerrett wrote:
>> Jochen Krause wrote:
>>
>>> I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based
>>> on its current status.
>>
>>> http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html
>>
>>> Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?
>>
>> Can I suggest we delay this decision until Markus returns. I believe
>> the VE team is close to making available their 3.3 support, so I would
>> like to give Markus a chance to evaluate it.
>>
>
> My feeling is that we need to have an actual release of VE if we're
> going to include it in the package. I have some cycles that I will
> dedicate to testing VE; hopefully this can be helpful in getting VE
> ready for Europa.
>
> I agree with Ian that we should defer making this decision for a while...
>
> Wayne

I am moving that decision from one week to another, because I really would
like to see the VE in our packages. From time to time I get an update from
Steve about his work and his progress, but I don't think that we can wait
any longer...

There are some reasons:

- If we had a VE status of 'just working', it would still need some time of
stabilising, user testing and feedback. EPP must deliver packages with a
stable and working content, and there is not enough time to reach that
level for VE.

- AFAIK the VE is build manually; there is no visible build process with
releases on an update site: EPP needs a working update site

- We can only include features from projects with an official release; that
means in particular that a release review is necessary. It sounds not
possible that this can be done in the VE project in time.

Therefore I would suggest to remove VE from our list of included features. I
will be happy to include it in a past Europa release!

Other opinions?

Markus
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5611 is a reply to message #5604] Thu, 07 June 2007 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ian Skerrett is currently offline Ian Skerrett
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
+1

> Therefore I would suggest to remove VE from our list of included features.
> I
> will be happy to include it in a past Europa release!
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5618 is a reply to message #5604] Fri, 08 June 2007 08:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com

Markus Knauer wrote:
> - If we had a VE status of 'just working', it would still need some time of
> stabilising, user testing and feedback. EPP must deliver packages with a
> stable and working content, and there is not enough time to reach that
> level for VE.

To me this is the kicker. EPP can't afford any risk of delivering
unstable or incomplete components; this is the first impression that
many users are going to get of Eclipse, so it has to be as good a
product as can be offered.

Eric
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #5625 is a reply to message #5618] Mon, 11 June 2007 02:40 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: mknauer.innoopract.com

Eric Rizzo wrote:

> Markus Knauer wrote:
>> - If we had a VE status of 'just working', it would still need some time
>> of stabilising, user testing and feedback. EPP must deliver packages with
>> a stable and working content, and there is not enough time to reach that
>> level for VE.
>
> To me this is the kicker. EPP can't afford any risk of delivering
> unstable or incomplete components; this is the first impression that
> many users are going to get of Eclipse, so it has to be as good a
> product as can be offered.
>
> Eric

Yes... on the status call last week we decided to remove VE from all of our
Europa packages. It would be nice to have it in there, but it was to risky.

Markus
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #574859 is a reply to message #5561] Fri, 18 May 2007 04:30 Go to previous message
Jochen Krause is currently offline Jochen Krause
Messages: 72
Registered: July 2009
Member
Wayne,

Thanks for your input. Here is some background info:

http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/epp-dev/msg00021.html

http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cross-project-issues-de v/msg01075.html

Jochen


Wayne Beaton wrote:
> I've downloaded and installed this package. Here are some comments (feel
> free to throw some of these back at me to work on):
>
> I'd love to see an actual installer. I obviously haven't been keeping up
> with this project enough because I recall that there used to be one and
> I assume that it's no longer being used for a good reason.
>
> I think that, when opened on a new workspace, it should open in the
> "Java perspective" (bug 187568)
>
> I imagine that the Mylar dialog that opens with a new workspace will be
> a little confusing for some new users to Eclipse (and some established
> users). I think Mylar is a necessary inclusion, but it'd be nice if it
> were a little quieter for first time users. Ideally, Mylar should just
> set itself up with default options that I assume first time users will
> just accept anyway (I tacked this onto bug 187568).
>
> The PDE appears to be included. I didn't expect to see this in this
> package.
>
> I see plug-ins that support XML editing, but it isn't exposed. There are
> dependencies on org.eclipse.emf.common, org.eclipse.emf.ecore.xmi,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore.edit, org.eclipse.perfmsr.core,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore (and others) which aren't included. (Bug 187583)
>
> There is support included for defining servers (though only HTTP Server
> is an option). I didn't expect to see this in this package.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #574942 is a reply to message #5561] Wed, 23 May 2007 18:04 Go to previous message
Jochen Krause is currently offline Jochen Krause
Messages: 72
Registered: July 2009
Member
I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based on
its current status.

http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html

Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?

Jochen

Wayne Beaton wrote:
> I've downloaded and installed this package. Here are some comments (feel
> free to throw some of these back at me to work on):
>
> I'd love to see an actual installer. I obviously haven't been keeping up
> with this project enough because I recall that there used to be one and
> I assume that it's no longer being used for a good reason.
>
> I think that, when opened on a new workspace, it should open in the
> "Java perspective" (bug 187568)
>
> I imagine that the Mylar dialog that opens with a new workspace will be
> a little confusing for some new users to Eclipse (and some established
> users). I think Mylar is a necessary inclusion, but it'd be nice if it
> were a little quieter for first time users. Ideally, Mylar should just
> set itself up with default options that I assume first time users will
> just accept anyway (I tacked this onto bug 187568).
>
> The PDE appears to be included. I didn't expect to see this in this
> package.
>
> I see plug-ins that support XML editing, but it isn't exposed. There are
> dependencies on org.eclipse.emf.common, org.eclipse.emf.ecore.xmi,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore.edit, org.eclipse.perfmsr.core,
> org.eclipse.emf.ecore (and others) which aren't included. (Bug 187583)
>
> There is support included for defining servers (though only HTTP Server
> is an option). I didn't expect to see this in this package.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #574964 is a reply to message #5583] Wed, 23 May 2007 20:23 Go to previous message
Ian Skerrett is currently offline Ian Skerrett
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Jochen Krause wrote:

> I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based on
> its current status.

> http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html

> Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?

Can I suggest we delay this decision until Markus returns. I believe the
VE team is close to making available their 3.3 support, so I would like to
give Markus a chance to evaluate it.
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #574990 is a reply to message #5590] Wed, 23 May 2007 21:15 Go to previous message
Wayne Beaton is currently offline Wayne Beaton
Messages: 497
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Ian Skerrett wrote:
> Jochen Krause wrote:
>
>> I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based
>> on its current status.
>
>> http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html
>
>> Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?
>
> Can I suggest we delay this decision until Markus returns. I believe
> the VE team is close to making available their 3.3 support, so I would
> like to give Markus a chance to evaluate it.
>

My feeling is that we need to have an actual release of VE if we're
going to include it in the package. I have some cycles that I will
dedicate to testing VE; hopefully this can be helpful in getting VE
ready for Europa.

I agree with Ian that we should defer making this decision for a while...

Wayne
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #575015 is a reply to message #5597] Thu, 07 June 2007 07:39 Go to previous message
Markus Knauer is currently offline Markus Knauer
Messages: 106
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member

Wayne Beaton wrote:

> Ian Skerrett wrote:
>> Jochen Krause wrote:
>>
>>> I propose that we remove VE from the list of provided features based
>>> on its current status.
>>
>>> http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/ve-dev/msg01519.html
>>
>>> Wayne, Ian, others, do you agree?
>>
>> Can I suggest we delay this decision until Markus returns. I believe
>> the VE team is close to making available their 3.3 support, so I would
>> like to give Markus a chance to evaluate it.
>>
>
> My feeling is that we need to have an actual release of VE if we're
> going to include it in the package. I have some cycles that I will
> dedicate to testing VE; hopefully this can be helpful in getting VE
> ready for Europa.
>
> I agree with Ian that we should defer making this decision for a while...
>
> Wayne

I am moving that decision from one week to another, because I really would
like to see the VE in our packages. From time to time I get an update from
Steve about his work and his progress, but I don't think that we can wait
any longer...

There are some reasons:

- If we had a VE status of 'just working', it would still need some time of
stabilising, user testing and feedback. EPP must deliver packages with a
stable and working content, and there is not enough time to reach that
level for VE.

- AFAIK the VE is build manually; there is no visible build process with
releases on an update site: EPP needs a working update site

- We can only include features from projects with an official release; that
means in particular that a release review is necessary. It sounds not
possible that this can be done in the VE project in time.

Therefore I would suggest to remove VE from our list of included features. I
will be happy to include it in a past Europa release!

Other opinions?

Markus


--
Markus Knauer

Twitter: @EclipseRAP
Blog: http://eclipsesource.com/blogs/

Professional services for RAP and RCP?
http://eclipsesource.com/services/rap/
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #575034 is a reply to message #5604] Thu, 07 June 2007 09:31 Go to previous message
Ian Skerrett is currently offline Ian Skerrett
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
+1

> Therefore I would suggest to remove VE from our list of included features.
> I
> will be happy to include it in a past Europa release!
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #575064 is a reply to message #5604] Fri, 08 June 2007 08:26 Go to previous message
Eric Rizzo is currently offline Eric Rizzo
Messages: 2235
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Markus Knauer wrote:
> - If we had a VE status of 'just working', it would still need some time of
> stabilising, user testing and feedback. EPP must deliver packages with a
> stable and working content, and there is not enough time to reach that
> level for VE.

To me this is the kicker. EPP can't afford any risk of delivering
unstable or incomplete components; this is the first impression that
many users are going to get of Eclipse, so it has to be as good a
product as can be offered.

Eric
Re: Eclipse Tools for Java Developer package comments [message #575073 is a reply to message #5618] Mon, 11 June 2007 02:40 Go to previous message
Markus Knauer is currently offline Markus Knauer
Messages: 106
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member

Eric Rizzo wrote:

> Markus Knauer wrote:
>> - If we had a VE status of 'just working', it would still need some time
>> of stabilising, user testing and feedback. EPP must deliver packages with
>> a stable and working content, and there is not enough time to reach that
>> level for VE.
>
> To me this is the kicker. EPP can't afford any risk of delivering
> unstable or incomplete components; this is the first impression that
> many users are going to get of Eclipse, so it has to be as good a
> product as can be offered.
>
> Eric

Yes... on the status call last week we decided to remove VE from all of our
Europa packages. It would be nice to have it in there, but it was to risky.

Markus


--
Markus Knauer

Twitter: @EclipseRAP
Blog: http://eclipsesource.com/blogs/

Professional services for RAP and RCP?
http://eclipsesource.com/services/rap/
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