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The FAQ aren't clear for me on this : inclusion/modification of EPL code snippets in program redistr [message #55842] Thu, 18 September 2008 12:08 Go to next message
Edoardo Comar is currently offline Edoardo Comar
Messages: 102
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi

** I am not expecting legal advice here **
Just an opinion please.

Even after reading

http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html
http://www.eclipse.org/legal/legalfaq.php
http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php

I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from only.

The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source that
originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.

But if one chooses not to redistribute source ?

thanks
Edoardo
Re: The FAQ aren't clear for me on this : inclusion/modification of EPL code snippets in program red [message #55942 is a reply to message #55842] Thu, 18 September 2008 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: nospam_kowalskilee.gmail.com

NOte: I am not a lawyer. I cannot give legal advice. (I have to put that
up front here).

FAQ #24 of the eplfaq says that if your question isn't answered there,
to contact license@eclipse.org.

I think that your question is:
"If I modify Eclipse code and compile the modified code, can I use the
resulting object code in a commercial program redistributed in object
form only?"

(If I'm incorrect, please clarify further).

The eplfaq has question #15 that says "Can I take a Program licensed
under the EPL, compile it without modification, and commercially license
the result?"

If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take a
Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and commercially
license the result?"

Sincerely,
Lee Anne


Edoardo Comar wrote:
> Hi
>
> ** I am not expecting legal advice here **
> Just an opinion please.
>
> Even after reading
>
> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html
> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/legalfaq.php
> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php
>
> I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
> used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from only.
>
> The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source that
> originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.
>
> But if one chooses not to redistribute source ?
>
> thanks
> Edoardo
Re: The FAQ aren't clear for me on this : inclusion/modification of EPL code snippets in program red [message #56016 is a reply to message #55942] Fri, 19 September 2008 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Edoardo Comar is currently offline Edoardo Comar
Messages: 102
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi Lee

your interpretation of my post

> If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take a
> Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and commercially
> license the result?"

is not exactly what I meant. I was essentially asking if you can
take "code snippets" (lines/methods/classes) of an EPL program,
possibly modfy them to suit your program, and use them in you own
commercially licensed, distributed in object code form only, without
having to distribute your sources (the ones where you have made use of
some code coming from an EPL-licensed program).

Edoardo


Lee Anne wrote:
>
> NOte: I am not a lawyer. I cannot give legal advice. (I have to put that
> up front here).
>
> FAQ #24 of the eplfaq says that if your question isn't answered there,
> to contact license@eclipse.org.
>
> I think that your question is:
> "If I modify Eclipse code and compile the modified code, can I use the
> resulting object code in a commercial program redistributed in object
> form only?"
>
> (If I'm incorrect, please clarify further).
>
> The eplfaq has question #15 that says "Can I take a Program licensed
> under the EPL, compile it without modification, and commercially license
> the result?"
>
> If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take a
> Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and commercially
> license the result?"
>
> Sincerely,
> Lee Anne
>
>
> Edoardo Comar wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> ** I am not expecting legal advice here **
>> Just an opinion please.
>>
>> Even after reading
>>
>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html
>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/legalfaq.php
>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php
>>
>> I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
>> used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from only.
>>
>> The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source
>> that originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.
>>
>> But if one chooses not to redistribute source ?
>>
>> thanks
>> Edoardo
Re: The FAQ aren't clear for me on this : inclusion/modification of EPL code snippets in program red [message #56042 is a reply to message #55842] Fri, 19 September 2008 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Morris is currently offline Tom Morris
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2009
Member
Edoardo Comar wrote:

> ** I am not expecting legal advice here **
> Just an opinion please.

Well, you're asking for an opinion about a legal document (the EPL) and
applicable copyright law, so it certainly sounds like legal advice to
me. If there's an economic/legal risk, you should ask your lawyer. If
there's no risk, flip a coin.

Here's my non-lawyer opinion about your question...

> I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
> used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from only.
>
> The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source that
> originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.

The FAQ isn't the controlling document, the license (EPL) is. The
license says that sources for any derivative works created from EPL code
must be distributed.

You could claim a "fair use" exception if the "snippets" are small
enough, but that's a very gray area and the courts weight a whole bunch
of factors like total size, % of overall work, use, economic impact,
etc, etc. You might have seen guidelines from various projects that say
anything more than NN lines of code requires a contributors agreement
and you could try to pick a number out of the air like that as well, but
it's really not that simple.

Your followup gives examples of "snippets" (some of which are pretty
non-snippety to may way of thinking), so here's my gut reaction to them:

- Class - definitely not fair use
- Method - probably not fair use unless its a small/trivial method
- Lines - probably fair use as long as it's not too many lines (whatever
"too many" means)

Tom
Re: The FAQ aren't clear for me on this : inclusion/modification of EPL code snippets in program red [message #56072 is a reply to message #56016] Fri, 19 September 2008 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed Merks
Messages: 26137
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------010901080403080300030206
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Edoardo,

If you copy any EPL code *and *make changes to that copy, those changes
need to be made available under EPL-license in source form. That
doesn't mean the whole product built around it can't be commercially
licensed closed source, it just means you must share the source. I know
of IBM products that do this kind of copy it and change it type of thing
with EMF/SDO, and then make a zip file of just the changed files
available on some public website when the product is shipped...


Edoardo Comar wrote:
> Hi Lee
>
> your interpretation of my post
>
> > If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take a
> > Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and commercially
> > license the result?"
>
> is not exactly what I meant. I was essentially asking if you can
> take "code snippets" (lines/methods/classes) of an EPL program,
> possibly modfy them to suit your program, and use them in you own
> commercially licensed, distributed in object code form only, without
> having to distribute your sources (the ones where you have made use of
> some code coming from an EPL-licensed program).
>
> Edoardo
>
>
> Lee Anne wrote:
>>
>> NOte: I am not a lawyer. I cannot give legal advice. (I have to put
>> that up front here).
>>
>> FAQ #24 of the eplfaq says that if your question isn't answered
>> there, to contact license@eclipse.org.
>>
>> I think that your question is:
>> "If I modify Eclipse code and compile the modified code, can I use
>> the resulting object code in a commercial program redistributed in
>> object form only?"
>>
>> (If I'm incorrect, please clarify further).
>>
>> The eplfaq has question #15 that says "Can I take a Program licensed
>> under the EPL, compile it without modification, and commercially
>> license the result?"
>>
>> If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take
>> a Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and
>> commercially license the result?"
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Lee Anne
>>
>>
>> Edoardo Comar wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> ** I am not expecting legal advice here **
>>> Just an opinion please.
>>>
>>> Even after reading
>>>
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/legalfaq.php
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php
>>>
>>> I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
>>> used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from
>>> only.
>>>
>>> The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source
>>> that originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.
>>>
>>> But if one chooses not to redistribute source ?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Edoardo

--------------010901080403080300030206
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Edoardo,<br>
<br>
If you copy any EPL code <b>and </b>make changes to that copy, those
changes need to be made available under EPL-license in source form.&nbsp;
That doesn't mean the whole product built around it can't be
commercially licensed closed source, it just means you must share the
source.&nbsp; I know of IBM products that do this kind of copy it and change
it type of thing with EMF/SDO, and then make a zip file of just the
changed files available on some public website when the product is
shipped...<br>
<br>
<br>
Edoardo Comar wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:gavqd7$2sr$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">Hi
Lee
<br>
<br>
your interpretation of my post
<br>
<br>
&gt; If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I
take a
<br>
&gt; Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and
commercially
<br>
&gt; license the result?"
<br>
<br>
is not exactly what I meant. I was essentially asking if you can
<br>
take "code snippets" (lines/methods/classes) of an EPL program,
<br>
possibly modfy them to suit your program, and use them in you own
commercially licensed, distributed in object code form only, without
having to distribute your sources (the ones where you have made use of
some code coming from an EPL-licensed program).
<br>
<br>
Edoardo
<br>
<br>
<br>
Lee Anne wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
NOte: I am not a lawyer. I cannot give legal advice. (I have to put
that up front here).
<br>
<br>
FAQ #24 of the eplfaq says that if your question isn't answered there,
to contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:license@eclipse.org">license@eclipse.org</a>.
<br>
<br>
I think that your question is:
<br>
"If I modify Eclipse code and compile the modified code, can I use the
resulting object code in a commercial program redistributed in object
form only?"
<br>
<br>
(If I'm incorrect, please clarify further).
<br>
<br>
The eplfaq has question #15 that says "Can I take a Program licensed
under the EPL, compile it without modification, and commercially
license the result?"
<br>
<br>
If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take a
Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and commercially
license the result?"
<br>
<br>
Sincerely,
<br>
Lee Anne
<br>
<br>
<br>
Edoardo Comar wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi
<br>
<br>
** I am not expecting legal advice here **
<br>
Just an opinion please.
<br>
<br>
Even after reading
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html">http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eclipse.org/legal/legalfaq.php">http://www.eclipse.org/legal/legalfaq.php</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php">http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php</a>
<br>
<br>
I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from
only.
<br>
<br>
The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source
that originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.
<br>
<br>
But if one chooses not to redistribute source ?
<br>
<br>
thanks
<br>
Edoardo
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------010901080403080300030206--
Re: The FAQ aren't clear for me on this : inclusion/modification of EPL code snippets in program red [message #56099 is a reply to message #56042] Fri, 19 September 2008 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Edoardo Comar is currently offline Edoardo Comar
Messages: 102
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Thanks Tom
this explanation is good for me.


Tom Morris wrote:
> Edoardo Comar wrote:
>
>> ** I am not expecting legal advice here **
>> Just an opinion please.
>
> Well, you're asking for an opinion about a legal document (the EPL) and
> applicable copyright law, so it certainly sounds like legal advice to
> me. If there's an economic/legal risk, you should ask your lawyer. If
> there's no risk, flip a coin.
>
> Here's my non-lawyer opinion about your question...
>
>> I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
>> used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from only.
>>
>> The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source
>> that originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.
>
> The FAQ isn't the controlling document, the license (EPL) is. The
> license says that sources for any derivative works created from EPL code
> must be distributed.
>
> You could claim a "fair use" exception if the "snippets" are small
> enough, but that's a very gray area and the courts weight a whole bunch
> of factors like total size, % of overall work, use, economic impact,
> etc, etc. You might have seen guidelines from various projects that say
> anything more than NN lines of code requires a contributors agreement
> and you could try to pick a number out of the air like that as well, but
> it's really not that simple.
>
> Your followup gives examples of "snippets" (some of which are pretty
> non-snippety to may way of thinking), so here's my gut reaction to them:
>
> - Class - definitely not fair use
> - Method - probably not fair use unless its a small/trivial method
> - Lines - probably fair use as long as it's not too many lines (whatever
> "too many" means)
>
> Tom
Re: The FAQ aren't clear for me on this : inclusion/modification of EPL code snippets in program red [message #56126 is a reply to message #56072] Fri, 19 September 2008 17:12 Go to previous message
Edoardo Comar is currently offline Edoardo Comar
Messages: 102
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Thanks
Ed - doubts cleared now

Ed Merks wrote:
> Edoardo,
>
> If you copy any EPL code *and *make changes to that copy, those changes
> need to be made available under EPL-license in source form. That
> doesn't mean the whole product built around it can't be commercially
> licensed closed source, it just means you must share the source. I know
> of IBM products that do this kind of copy it and change it type of thing
> with EMF/SDO, and then make a zip file of just the changed files
> available on some public website when the product is shipped...
>
>
> Edoardo Comar wrote:
>> Hi Lee
>>
>> your interpretation of my post
>>
>> > If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take a
>> > Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and commercially
>> > license the result?"
>>
>> is not exactly what I meant. I was essentially asking if you can
>> take "code snippets" (lines/methods/classes) of an EPL program,
>> possibly modfy them to suit your program, and use them in you own
>> commercially licensed, distributed in object code form only, without
>> having to distribute your sources (the ones where you have made use of
>> some code coming from an EPL-licensed program).
>>
>> Edoardo
>>
>>
>> Lee Anne wrote:
>>>
>>> NOte: I am not a lawyer. I cannot give legal advice. (I have to put
>>> that up front here).
>>>
>>> FAQ #24 of the eplfaq says that if your question isn't answered
>>> there, to contact license@eclipse.org.
>>>
>>> I think that your question is:
>>> "If I modify Eclipse code and compile the modified code, can I use
>>> the resulting object code in a commercial program redistributed in
>>> object form only?"
>>>
>>> (If I'm incorrect, please clarify further).
>>>
>>> The eplfaq has question #15 that says "Can I take a Program licensed
>>> under the EPL, compile it without modification, and commercially
>>> license the result?"
>>>
>>> If I'm correct about your question, it is a question like "Can I take
>>> a Program licensed under the EPL, modify it, compile it, and
>>> commercially license the result?"
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Lee Anne
>>>
>>>
>>> Edoardo Comar wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> ** I am not expecting legal advice here **
>>>> Just an opinion please.
>>>>
>>>> Even after reading
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html
>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/legalfaq.php
>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't able to clarify whether snippets of Eclipse/EPL code can be
>>>> used/modified in a commercial program redistributed in object from
>>>> only.
>>>>
>>>> The FAQ only say that *if* source is redistributed, then the source
>>>> that originated from EPL sources must be licensed under EPL.
>>>>
>>>> But if one chooses not to redistribute source ?
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> Edoardo
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