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Combine experience [message #542098] Wed, 23 June 2010 20:45 Go to next message
rjahn is currently offline rjahn
Messages: 8
Registered: June 2010
Location: Vienna/Austria
Junior Member
Sapphire is really a good idea and UI development with data-binding should be as simple as possible to have enough time to fulfill the requested requirements. Developers life should be easier.

In the last 2 years we developed an open source library with pretty the same goals. So it maybe makes sense to combine our experience.

Our library is distributed under apache license 2.0 and is available on our website http://www.sibvisions.com/en/jvx.

[Updated on: Thu, 24 June 2010 08:06]

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Re: Combine experience [message #542800 is a reply to message #542098] Sat, 26 June 2010 06:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Konstantin Komissarchik is currently offline Konstantin Komissarchik
Messages: 940
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hi,

Good to hear from other folks thinking in the same direction. I haven't had a chance to take a look at your website, but I will do that next week. I just published an intro to Sapphire article. Take a look when you get a chance and post back with your thoughts on potential synergies.

http://lt-rider.blogspot.com/2010/06/sapphire.html

Look forward to hearing more from you.

- Konstantin
Re: Combine experience [message #543253 is a reply to message #542098] Mon, 28 June 2010 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjahn is currently offline rjahn
Messages: 8
Registered: June 2010
Location: Vienna/Austria
Junior Member
Your blog helped to understand for what Sapphire is developed.

For me, it is a good idea to help developers to create UIs. But the developer must still write a lot of
interfaces/xml files. But not so much as before Smile and that helps!

How is your plan to integrate the database access?
How has the developer to combine UI model with domain model?
Any plans for client/server apps?

The UI is only one part in application development. Of course, it depends on the application type.
If a developer creates an UI, in most cases, he needs more e.g. database access, client/server communication,
business logic, ...

With JVx we try to help the developers with every part of app development.

The developer has to write source code instead of define the UI by XML. The written code can then be run as Desktop, RIA or HTML/Ajax application, without any changes in the code. Same code, different UI platform. We have a standard cross platform UI Interface for widget's, layouts etc. and we wrote an implementation for each UI technology. So we take care about the UI platform problems, and for the Application Developer is everything the same!

We have the same idea/vision "simplify development", but I think we used a kind of different way to solve the needs of an developer over the complete development process of a typical database driven business applications.
Re: Combine experience [message #543258 is a reply to message #543253] Mon, 28 June 2010 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Konstantin Komissarchik is currently offline Konstantin Komissarchik
Messages: 940
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
> How is your plan to integrate the database access?

We have no specific plans right now to work on easing database access, but Sapphire model is flexible enough to consume data from any resource type. The question is not whether you can write database-based apps using Sapphire, but rather how easy it is. If you are interested in exploring this further, that's something that we can definitely look at. I would imagine that we would leverage the work of others in this area... JPA seems like a logical choice or perhaps EMF CDO.

> How has the developer to combine UI model with domain model?

Could you clarify your terms? In Sapphire, the model that you write is not specific to the UI. I guess you would call it the domain model. The UI definition file specifies how the model should be presented on the screen.

> Any plans for client/server apps?

Nothing specific. Sapphire's scope is UI development. There are a number of technologies that you can combine Sapphire with to create complete applications.

JVx goals sound similar to Eclipse Riena project, which also looks to create an end-to-end framework for writing biz apps.

http://www.eclipse.org/riena/

- Konstantin
Re: Combine experience [message #543776 is a reply to message #543258] Wed, 30 June 2010 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjahn is currently offline rjahn
Messages: 8
Registered: June 2010
Location: Vienna/Austria
Junior Member
> We have no specific plans right now to work on easing database access, but Sapphire model is flexible......

You are right. I asked because easy UI creation is very important but the UI needs data to work as expected. In your example you described value properties, list properties, ...
And that is what i meant with UI model / domain model combination:

e.g.:
We access the database with an ORM (maybe cayenne or hibernate or others)

We create all relevant classes, database, ...
On the backend we have our POJOs and on the frontend we have our UI model.

Now we need a lot of source code to bind our "data model" to the "UI model". There is not really a difference between UI binding, with or without Sapphire, isn't it?

Am I completely Offtopic?


> Riena

I read a lot about the framework, but I did not try to create apps. I like the direction of thinking but the dependencies let it appear complex.

Some time ago I searched a solution for Android devices: Same framework for development, but different apps:
- Frontend/Backend (Java RIA)
- Mobile Client (Android)

I did not find a framework which has both. There are a lot of frameworks/tools which supports service creation and other frameworks which supports the service access.
But I need a lot of frameworks to do simple things...

JVx helps us to do above things, because it is very small and doesn't assume other libraries. And it runs on android devices too.

But that's not the right place to discuss differences between Riena and JVx Smile
Re: Combine experience [message #543826 is a reply to message #543776] Wed, 30 June 2010 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Konstantin Komissarchik is currently offline Konstantin Komissarchik
Messages: 940
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
> On the backend we have our POJOs and on the frontend we have our
> UI model.
>
> Now we need a lot of source code to bind our "data model" to the "UI
> model". There is not really a difference between UI binding, with or
> without Sapphire, isn't it?

I think I finally understand what you mean by "data model" and the "UI model".

In Sapphire, the model presents a standard front-end interface to clients (such as the UI renderer or custom processing code). This is the interfaces, the annotations and the properties that you see in the articles that I posted. This part doesn't change depending on how the data is stored, so the Sapphire UI framework will bind to the model whether the data comes from XML, database or some other custom source.

On the back-end of the model, there is a concept of a resource which knows how to read/write properties to the underlying storage medium. Sapphire provides a resource implementation for XML that binds to XML DOM, but anyone can write a custom resource. For instance, someone could write a resource that binds to JPA POJOs. Some JPA frameworks have powerful underlying data access layer that can be leveraged directly without the intermediary step of a POJO, which in the Sapphire case would be hidden behind the model so it doesn't provide much value.

I hope that answered your questions.

> But I need a lot of frameworks to do simple things...

This tends to be a natural product of the diversity of usecases. Of course there also an opportunity here for third parties to create value by assembling multiple components into solutions suited for particular problems.

My goal is to keep Sapphire core very light and make it possible for it to run in a variety of environments. Currently Sapphire requires OSGi, primarily for extensibility (third parties adding extensions). I am actively looking for ways to break this dependency because I'd like to make Sapphire accessible to every Java developer.

It sounds that in many ways the goals of Sapphire and JVx are aligned. We could use help writing additional renderers as we currently have only one for SWT. We could use one for Swing and one for HTML/Ajax. It looks like you have a lot of experience in this area. Sapphire's scope may not encompass an end-to-end solution that your a looking for with JVx, but perhaps with a bit of work Sapphire can be the UI component in JVx?

- Konstantin
Re: Combine experience [message #550685 is a reply to message #543826] Wed, 04 August 2010 07:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pavel Petrochenko is currently offline Pavel Petrochenko
Messages: 7
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi, we have also worked in similar direction
(http://www.onpositive.com:8000/semantic)
and are interested in contributing to Saphire.

Regards,
Pavel(pavel@onpositive.com)
Re: Combine experience [message #551123 is a reply to message #543826] Thu, 05 August 2010 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjahn is currently offline rjahn
Messages: 8
Registered: June 2010
Location: Vienna/Austria
Junior Member
> I hope that answered your questions.

all clear.

> ... but perhaps with a bit of work Sapphire can be the UI component in JVx?

A very interesting idea and absolutely possible.
Re: Combine experience [message #561072 is a reply to message #543258] Wed, 30 June 2010 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjahn is currently offline rjahn
Messages: 8
Registered: June 2010
Location: Vienna/Austria
Junior Member
> We have no specific plans right now to work on easing database access, but Sapphire model is flexible......

You are right. I asked because easy UI creation is very important but the UI needs data to work as expected. In your example you described value properties, list properties, ...
And that is what i meant with UI model / domain model combination:

e.g.:
We access the database with an ORM (maybe cayenne or hibernate or others)

We create all relevant classes, database, ...
On the backend we have our POJOs and on the frontend we have our UI model.

Now we need a lot of source code to bind our "data model" to the "UI model". There is not really a difference between UI binding, with or without Sapphire, isn't it?

Am I completely Offtopic?


> Riena

I read a lot about the framework, but I did not try to create apps. I like the direction of thinking but the dependencies let it appear complex.

Some time ago I searched a solution for Android devices: Same framework for development, but different apps:
- Frontend/Backend (Java RIA)
- Mobile Client (Android)

I did not find a framework which has both. There are a lot of frameworks/tools which supports service creation and other frameworks which supports the service access.
But I need a lot of frameworks to do simple things...

JVx helps us to do above things, because it is very small and doesn't assume other libraries. And it runs on android devices too.

But that's not the right place to discuss differences between Riena and JVx :)
Re: Combine experience [message #561089 is a reply to message #543776] Wed, 30 June 2010 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Konstantin Komissarchik is currently offline Konstantin Komissarchik
Messages: 940
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
> On the backend we have our POJOs and on the frontend we have our
> UI model.
>
> Now we need a lot of source code to bind our "data model" to the "UI
> model". There is not really a difference between UI binding, with or
> without Sapphire, isn't it?

I think I finally understand what you mean by "data model" and the "UI model".

In Sapphire, the model presents a standard front-end interface to clients (such as the UI renderer or custom processing code). This is the interfaces, the annotations and the properties that you see in the articles that I posted. This part doesn't change depending on how the data is stored, so the Sapphire UI framework will bind to the model whether the data comes from XML, database or some other custom source.

On the back-end of the model, there is a concept of a resource which knows how to read/write properties to the underlying storage medium. Sapphire provides a resource implementation for XML that binds to XML DOM, but anyone can write a custom resource. For instance, someone could write a resource that binds to JPA POJOs. Some JPA frameworks have powerful underlying data access layer that can be leveraged directly without the intermediary step of a POJO, which in the Sapphire case would be hidden behind the model so it doesn't provide much value.

I hope that answered your questions.

> But I need a lot of frameworks to do simple things...

This tends to be a natural product of the diversity of usecases. Of course there also an opportunity here for third parties to create value by assembling multiple components into solutions suited for particular problems.

My goal is to keep Sapphire core very light and make it possible for it to run in a variety of environments. Currently Sapphire requires OSGi, primarily for extensibility (third parties adding extensions). I am actively looking for ways to break this dependency because I'd like to make Sapphire accessible to every Java developer.

It sounds that in many ways the goals of Sapphire and JVx are aligned. We could use help writing additional renderers as we currently have only one for SWT. We could use one for Swing and one for HTML/Ajax. It looks like you have a lot of experience in this area. Sapphire's scope may not encompass an end-to-end solution that your a looking for with JVx, but perhaps with a bit of work Sapphire can be the UI component in JVx?

- Konstantin
Re: Combine experience [message #564464 is a reply to message #561089] Wed, 04 August 2010 07:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pavel Petrochenko is currently offline Pavel Petrochenko
Messages: 7
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hi, we have also worked in similar direction
(http://www.onpositive.com:8000/semantic)
and are interested in contributing to Saphire.

Regards,
Pavel(mailto:pavel@onpositive.com)
Re: Combine experience [message #564487 is a reply to message #561089] Thu, 05 August 2010 10:50 Go to previous message
rjahn is currently offline rjahn
Messages: 8
Registered: June 2010
Location: Vienna/Austria
Junior Member
> I hope that answered your questions.

all clear.

> ... but perhaps with a bit of work Sapphire can be the UI component in JVx?

A very interesting idea and absolutely possible.
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