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SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53277] Mon, 14 April 2008 11:34 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: joerg.von.frantzius.artnology.com

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Hi,<br>
<br>
in <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=20486">https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=20486</a> it was stated
that a Qt/KDE port of SWT cannot be released due to licensing issues
with GPL. For some time now, Trolltech defines GPL exceptions
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception">http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception</a>) which seem to allow
such a thing, since the Eclipse Public License is explicitly listed
there.<br>
<br>
Could someone in the know clarify what the Eclipse Foundation's
official stance is here?<br>
<br>
Thanks for any comments,<br>
Jörg<br>
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Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53360 is a reply to message #53277] Tue, 15 April 2008 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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J=F6rg,

The short answer is we don't know. I just looked at the license =
exception and it seems to at least be helpful. But the hard part in =
doing these analyses is always figuring out the commercial distribution =
case. Eclipse is specifically set up to not only allow but encourage =
commercial adoption of technologies that are delivered by Eclipse =
projects. I am not sure that their exception goes far enough to allow =
that. Doing such an analysis would require a fairly significant =
investment in time and money.

Is this a rhetorical question, or do you have a development team =
interested in working on this?
"J=F6rg von Frantzius" <joerg.von.frantzius@artnology.com> wrote in =
message news:ftvfga$dj$1@build.eclipse.org...
Hi,

in https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=3D20486 it was stated =
that a Qt/KDE port of SWT cannot be released due to licensing issues =
with GPL. For some time now, Trolltech defines GPL exceptions =
(http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception) which seem to allow such =
a thing, since the Eclipse Public License is explicitly listed there.

Could someone in the know clarify what the Eclipse Foundation's =
official stance is here?

Thanks for any comments,
J=F6rg

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<DIV>J=F6rg,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The short answer is we don't know. I =
just looked at=20
the license exception and it seems to at least be helpful. But the hard =
part in=20
doing these analyses is always figuring out the commercial distribution=20
case.&nbsp;Eclipse is specifically set up to not only allow but =
encourage=20
commercial adoption of technologies that are delivered by Eclipse =
projects. I am=20
not sure that their exception goes far enough to allow that. Doing such =
an=20
analysis would require a fairly significant investment in time and=20
money.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is this a rhetorical question, or do =
you have a=20
development team interested in working on this?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>"J=F6rg von Frantzius" &lt;<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:joerg.von.frantzius@artnology.com">joerg.von.frantzius@art=
nology.com</A>&gt;=20
wrote in message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:ftvfga$dj$1@build.eclipse.org">news:ftvfga$dj$1@build.eclips=
e.org</A>...</DIV>Hi,<BR><BR>in=20
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
=
href=3D"https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=3D20486">https://bu=
gs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=3D20486</A>=20
it was stated that a Qt/KDE port of SWT cannot be released due to =
licensing=20
issues with GPL. For some time now, Trolltech defines GPL exceptions =
(<A=20
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
=
href=3D"http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception">http://trolltech.c=
om/products/qt/gplexception</A>)=20
which seem to allow such a thing, since the Eclipse Public License is=20
explicitly listed there.<BR><BR>Could someone in the know clarify what =
the=20
Eclipse Foundation's official stance is here?<BR><BR>Thanks for any=20
comments,<BR>J=F6rg<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53413 is a reply to message #53360] Tue, 15 April 2008 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: joerg.von.frantzius.artnology.com

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Hello Mike,

I'm asking just because I'd like to use it, as probably most KDE users
will want to. So, no development team waiting to start work on it here,
unfortunately, but not a rhetorical question either.

I'm pretty sure that the GPL exception does not extend to commercial
products, as long as they aren't licensed under one of the mentioned OSS
licenses themselves. The point is that this doesn't seem to preclude the
Eclipse Foundation from releasing an SWT port for Qt, whoever could be
creating it. It would then just exist for developer's pleasure, if you
want. There were rumours floating around that there even already
/exists/ a Qt port, but that it simply couldn't be released due to legal
issues, i.e. before the GPL exceptions were made by Trolltech. Steve
Northover sounded a bit like the legal issues were the only problem with
creating a Qt port.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking that Steve et al would do it, or even
already had done it. But still I'd like to make sure that there simply
is no legal issue standing in the way.

Regards,
J
Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53441 is a reply to message #53413] Tue, 15 April 2008 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: dschaefer.rogers.com

If there is a question, then no corporate lawyer would allow such a
release. So, yes, even if a Qt port existed, I'm pretty sure none of the
SWT committers would be allowed by their employer to work on it because
of the legal implications.

This is something that has always bothered me about KDE and Qt. Yes, it
looks great and I understand that Trolltech needs revenue to pay for
it's development. But don't be fooled into thinking it's open source.
GPL is there to protect their investment, but it also prevents
widespread commercial adoption.

I keep hoping that Nokia, who recently bought Trolltech, will change
their business model. But that is just my hope. In the meantime, GTK
with it's more commercial friendly LGPL license slowly gets better.

Doug.

Jörg von Frantzius wrote:
> Hello Mike,
>
> I'm asking just because I'd like to use it, as probably most KDE users
> will want to. So, no development team waiting to start work on it here,
> unfortunately, but not a rhetorical question either.
>
> I'm pretty sure that the GPL exception does not extend to commercial
> products, as long as they aren't licensed under one of the mentioned OSS
> licenses themselves. The point is that this doesn't seem to preclude the
> Eclipse Foundation from releasing an SWT port for Qt, whoever could be
> creating it. It would then just exist for developer's pleasure, if you
> want. There were rumours floating around that there even already
> /exists/ a Qt port, but that it simply couldn't be released due to legal
> issues, i.e. before the GPL exceptions were made by Trolltech. Steve
> Northover sounded a bit like the legal issues were the only problem with
> creating a Qt port.
>
> Maybe it's just wishful thinking that Steve et al would do it, or even
> already had done it. But still I'd like to make sure that there simply
> is no legal issue standing in the way.
>
> Regards,
> Jörg
>
> Mike Milinkovich schrieb:
>> Jörg,
>>
>> The short answer is we don't know. I just looked at the license
>> exception and it seems to at least be helpful. But the hard part in
>> doing these analyses is always figuring out the commercial
>> distribution case. Eclipse is specifically set up to not only allow
>> but encourage commercial adoption of technologies that are delivered
>> by Eclipse projects. I am not sure that their exception goes far
>> enough to allow that. Doing such an analysis would require a fairly
>> significant investment in time and money.
>>
>> Is this a rhetorical question, or do you have a development team
>> interested in working on this?
>>
>> "Jörg von Frantzius" <joerg.von.frantzius@artnology.com
>> <mailto:joerg.von.frantzius@artnology.com>> wrote in message
>> news:ftvfga$dj$1@build.eclipse.org...
>> Hi,
>>
>> in https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=20486 it was
>> stated that a Qt/KDE port of SWT cannot be released due to
>> licensing issues with GPL. For some time now, Trolltech defines
>> GPL exceptions (http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception)
>> which seem to allow such a thing, since the Eclipse Public License
>> is explicitly listed there.
>>
>> Could someone in the know clarify what the Eclipse Foundation's
>> official stance is here?
>>
>> Thanks for any comments,
>> Jörg
>>
>
Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53576 is a reply to message #53441] Wed, 16 April 2008 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: joerg.von.frantzius.artnology.com

Doug Schaefer schrieb:
> If there is a question, then no corporate lawyer would allow such a
> release. So, yes, even if a Qt port existed, I'm pretty sure none of
> the SWT committers would be allowed by their employer to work on it
> because of the legal implications.
I doubt there would be legal implications if the Qt port was released
under the EPL. There would be legal implications if anybody sold a
commercial product on top of it, without paying Trolltech.

My point really just is that for the Eclipse Foundation there would be
no trouble releasing it und the EPL. If any company, maybe the same
company that financed the port, would want to sell a build of their
product for the Qt platform, then they'd have to go and make a deal with
Trolltech themselves.
>
> This is something that has always bothered me about KDE and Qt. Yes,
> it looks great and I understand that Trolltech needs revenue to pay
> for it's development. But don't be fooled into thinking it's open
> source. GPL is there to protect their investment, but it also prevents
> widespread commercial adoption.
>
> I keep hoping that Nokia, who recently bought Trolltech, will change
> their business model. But that is just my hope. In the meantime, GTK
> with it's more commercial friendly LGPL license slowly gets better.
>
> Doug.
>
> Jörg von Frantzius wrote:
>> Hello Mike,
>>
>> I'm asking just because I'd like to use it, as probably most KDE
>> users will want to. So, no development team waiting to start work on
>> it here, unfortunately, but not a rhetorical question either.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure that the GPL exception does not extend to commercial
>> products, as long as they aren't licensed under one of the mentioned
>> OSS licenses themselves. The point is that this doesn't seem to
>> preclude the Eclipse Foundation from releasing an SWT port for Qt,
>> whoever could be creating it. It would then just exist for
>> developer's pleasure, if you want. There were rumours floating around
>> that there even already /exists/ a Qt port, but that it simply
>> couldn't be released due to legal issues, i.e. before the GPL
>> exceptions were made by Trolltech. Steve Northover sounded a bit like
>> the legal issues were the only problem with creating a Qt port.
>>
>> Maybe it's just wishful thinking that Steve et al would do it, or
>> even already had done it. But still I'd like to make sure that there
>> simply is no legal issue standing in the way.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jörg
>>
>> Mike Milinkovich schrieb:
>>> Jörg,
>>>
>>> The short answer is we don't know. I just looked at the license
>>> exception and it seems to at least be helpful. But the hard part in
>>> doing these analyses is always figuring out the commercial
>>> distribution case. Eclipse is specifically set up to not only allow
>>> but encourage commercial adoption of technologies that are delivered
>>> by Eclipse projects. I am not sure that their exception goes far
>>> enough to allow that. Doing such an analysis would require a fairly
>>> significant investment in time and money.
>>>
>>> Is this a rhetorical question, or do you have a development team
>>> interested in working on this?
>>>
>>> "Jörg von Frantzius" <joerg.von.frantzius@artnology.com
>>> <mailto:joerg.von.frantzius@artnology.com>> wrote in message
>>> news:ftvfga$dj$1@build.eclipse.org...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> in https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=20486 it was
>>> stated that a Qt/KDE port of SWT cannot be released due to
>>> licensing issues with GPL. For some time now, Trolltech defines
>>> GPL exceptions (http://trolltech.com/products/qt/gplexception)
>>> which seem to allow such a thing, since the Eclipse Public License
>>> is explicitly listed there.
>>>
>>> Could someone in the know clarify what the Eclipse Foundation's
>>> official stance is here?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any comments,
>>> Jörg
>>>
>>
Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53603 is a reply to message #53576] Wed, 16 April 2008 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Achim Loerke is currently offline Achim Loerke
Messages: 349
Registered: July 2009
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
Senior Member

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:18:37 +0200, Jörg von Frantzius
<joerg.von.frantzius@artnology.com> wrote:

>Doug Schaefer schrieb:
>> If there is a question, then no corporate lawyer would allow such a
>> release. So, yes, even if a Qt port existed, I'm pretty sure none of
>> the SWT committers would be allowed by their employer to work on it
>> because of the legal implications.
>I doubt there would be legal implications if the Qt port was released
>under the EPL. There would be legal implications if anybody sold a
>commercial product on top of it, without paying Trolltech.
>

The EPL allows everyone to sell a (even closed source) product based
on Eclipse technology. So every part used throughout Eclipse must be
licensed this way.


Achim
--
Achim Lörke

Eclipse-Stammtisch in the Braunschweig, Germany area:
http://www.bredex.de/de/career/eclipse.html


Achim Lörke

Jubula Funtional Testing Tool:http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/jubula
Eclipse-Stammtisch Braunschweig: http://www.bredex.de/de/news/eclipse.html
Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53630 is a reply to message #53603] Tue, 22 April 2008 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: joerg.von.frantzius.artnology.com

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Achim L
Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #53657 is a reply to message #53630] Tue, 22 April 2008 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com

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J
Re: SWT for KDE / Qt? [message #55466 is a reply to message #53657] Tue, 22 July 2008 14:46 Go to previous message
Carsten Pfeiffer is currently offline Carsten Pfeiffer
Messages: 34
Registered: July 2009
Member
Ed Merks wrote:

> It's certainly more of a gray zone if only EPL content itself was
> distributed and the recipient themselves needed to fetch the GPL content
> and drop it in to make it work. As Mike says, these kinds of questions
> involve paying lawyers to make decisions about topics for which there is
> little in the way of legal precedents and hence in an area rife with
> risk. Lawyers really don't like risks...

An option might be to simply contact TrollTech to clarify these issues. They
are really nice and friendly guys and one might assume that they have an
opinion on this matter, since they were the ones adding the EPL-clause.

Cheers,
Carsten
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