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What is the future of RCP? [message #53250] Mon, 14 April 2008 06:12 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: robert.moestl.joanneum.at

Hello,

I've already posted the question in the eclipse.rcp newsgroup. Boris
Bokowski advised me to post this question in this newsgroup again.

So basically the question is, why does the eclipse.org website does not
refer to the RCP like it used to? Is this a kind of marketing strategy?
Is RCP going to be replaced by another technology? I know RCP
development is still going on since eclipse is based on it. But will
eclipse be an application platform in the future too? I develop a
application based on RCP too and I wonder if I have to migrate to
another technology because eclipse as a application framework will not
be supported anymore?

Kind regards,
Robert
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #53306 is a reply to message #53250] Mon, 14 April 2008 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Boris Bokowski is currently offline Boris Bokowski
Messages: 272
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Robert M
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #53333 is a reply to message #53306] Mon, 14 April 2008 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ian Skerrett is currently offline Ian Skerrett
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
> You have a valid point though - in the past, RCP was listed as one of the
> "pillars of Eclipse" if I remember correctly. It seems that the icon that
> was used for RCP is now being used for the Equinox portal. Why is the
> prominent link to RCP no longer on the main page?


You are correct we have replaced the RCP link on the home page to the
Equinox portal. RCP is definintely very important and we will continue to
promote it. For instance we are promoting an RCP training series on the
home page right now.

However, we will also be promoting RCP in the context of the overall Equinox
and Eclipse RT context. I think we need to do a better job raising the
profile of RCP on the Equinox portal and hopefully you will see this over
the next couple of months.
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #53387 is a reply to message #53250] Tue, 15 April 2008 07:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Robert M
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #53495 is a reply to message #53387] Tue, 15 April 2008 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: robert.moestl.joanneum.at

Hello,

first it is to say that I'm very satisfied with the answers to my
question, thank you Boris, who pointed me in the right direction, and Ian.

When the RCP link was replaced on eclipse.org in middle of March I did
half a day of research to get a glue what had happened. To summarize it
took me far too long to understand that RCP is part of Equinox. So a
little announcement on the top of the site would have been very helpful
to me. And this could be helpful for other potential developers too. I
just imagine I'm telling a friend about how great Eclipse RCP is. I
guess my friend wouldn't be very happy if he visits eclipse.org and
hardly can find information on RCP and desktop application development
in general.

Secondly isn't it a little bit confusing if the welcome page of
eclipse.org says Eclipse is used for:
- Enterprise Development -> "Ok, I understand"
- Embedded + Device Development -> "Ok, I understand"
- Equinox Portal (former RCP): "what the hell is Equinox?" (By the way:
wasn't it just an implementation of OSGi? Now Equinox seems to be more a
non-technical term)
- ...

Finally it is to say that in the current status of the website I don't
get it that Eclipse can be used for desktop application development too.
In my humble opinion this has to be changed.

Kind regards,
Robert



Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> "Robert Möstl" <robert.moestl@joanneum.at> wrote in message
> news:ftvaln$r13$1@build.eclipse.org...
>
> I am in agreement with what Ian and Boris have already said, but just wanted
> to reinforce one item.
>
>> But will eclipse be an application platform in the future too?
>
> This is the key question. And the answer is most emphatically *yes*. All
> that is happening is that the scope of Eclipse as an application integration
> platform is widening. We focused 100% on RCP when the projects were working
> on desktop application integration technologies. Now that we have projects
> working on server-side (Swordfish, EclipseLink, RAP) and device-side (eRCP)
> runtimes, the messaging is widening to accomodate that.
>
> Put another way, RCP is now part of the Eclipse runtime story, rather than
> being *the* Eclipse runtime story.
>
> We at the EMO always struggle with trying to deliver marketing messages that
> try to explain what is going on in the projects. Let's face it: we don't
> tell the projects what to do, so our marketing is largely post-facto. It is
> trying to explain where the projects have already headed. It's an
> interesting challenge. Especially since our marketing resources are so
> limited.
>
> Is this helpful? Do you feel we are on the right track, or do we need to
> reconsider our approach?
>
>
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #53682 is a reply to message #53495] Tue, 22 April 2008 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eclipseng.arthorne.com

> To summarize it took me far too long to understand that RCP is part
of Equinox.

It seems the messages are still a bit mixed, because RCP isn't part of
Equinox. It seems the problem is using the code name "Equinox" on this
main page where it doesn't seem to fit. I.e., the five listed pillars
are "Enterprise, Embedded, Equinox, Application Frameworks, Language
IDE". Four of those categories are descriptive, and one of them is a
project name that likely has no meaning for a newcomer. Perhaps the
fifth pillar as listed on the main page should say "Runtimes" or
"Equinox Runtimes". Of course RCP is more of an application framework
on top of the Equinox runtime, so it's not clear how it fits into the
big picture.
--


Robert Möstl wrote:
> Hello,
>
> first it is to say that I'm very satisfied with the answers to my
> question, thank you Boris, who pointed me in the right direction, and Ian.
>
> When the RCP link was replaced on eclipse.org in middle of March I did
> half a day of research to get a glue what had happened. To summarize it
> took me far too long to understand that RCP is part of Equinox. So a
> little announcement on the top of the site would have been very helpful
> to me. And this could be helpful for other potential developers too. I
> just imagine I'm telling a friend about how great Eclipse RCP is. I
> guess my friend wouldn't be very happy if he visits eclipse.org and
> hardly can find information on RCP and desktop application development
> in general.
>
> Secondly isn't it a little bit confusing if the welcome page of
> eclipse.org says Eclipse is used for:
> - Enterprise Development -> "Ok, I understand"
> - Embedded + Device Development -> "Ok, I understand"
> - Equinox Portal (former RCP): "what the hell is Equinox?" (By the way:
> wasn't it just an implementation of OSGi? Now Equinox seems to be more a
> non-technical term)
> - ...
>
> Finally it is to say that in the current status of the website I don't
> get it that Eclipse can be used for desktop application development too.
> In my humble opinion this has to be changed.
>
> Kind regards,
> Robert
>
>
>
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>> "Robert Möstl" <robert.moestl@joanneum.at> wrote in message
>> news:ftvaln$r13$1@build.eclipse.org...
>>
>> I am in agreement with what Ian and Boris have already said, but just
>> wanted to reinforce one item.
>>
>>> But will eclipse be an application platform in the future too?
>>
>> This is the key question. And the answer is most emphatically *yes*.
>> All that is happening is that the scope of Eclipse as an application
>> integration platform is widening. We focused 100% on RCP when the
>> projects were working on desktop application integration technologies.
>> Now that we have projects working on server-side (Swordfish,
>> EclipseLink, RAP) and device-side (eRCP) runtimes, the messaging is
>> widening to accomodate that.
>>
>> Put another way, RCP is now part of the Eclipse runtime story, rather
>> than being *the* Eclipse runtime story.
>>
>> We at the EMO always struggle with trying to deliver marketing
>> messages that try to explain what is going on in the projects. Let's
>> face it: we don't tell the projects what to do, so our marketing is
>> largely post-facto. It is trying to explain where the projects have
>> already headed. It's an interesting challenge. Especially since our
>> marketing resources are so limited.
>>
>> Is this helpful? Do you feel we are on the right track, or do we need
>> to reconsider our approach?
>>
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #53706 is a reply to message #53495] Wed, 23 April 2008 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse Webmaster is currently offline Eclipse Webmaster
Messages: 446695
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Robert Möstl wrote:
> Secondly isn't it a little bit confusing if the welcome page of
> eclipse.org says Eclipse is used for:
> - Enterprise Development -> "Ok, I understand"
> - Embedded + Device Development -> "Ok, I understand"
> - Equinox Portal (former RCP): "what the hell is Equinox?" (By the way:
> wasn't it just an implementation of OSGi? Now Equinox seems to be more a
> non-technical term)

I agree. I've opened http://bugs.eclipse.org/228421 to discuss.

Thanks for your input.

Denis


> - ...
>
> Finally it is to say that in the current status of the website I don't
> get it that Eclipse can be used for desktop application development too.
> In my humble opinion this has to be changed.
>
> Kind regards,
> Robert
>
>
>
> Mike Milinkovich wrote:
>> "Robert Möstl" <robert.moestl@joanneum.at> wrote in message
>> news:ftvaln$r13$1@build.eclipse.org...
>>
>> I am in agreement with what Ian and Boris have already said, but just
>> wanted to reinforce one item.
>>
>>> But will eclipse be an application platform in the future too?
>>
>> This is the key question. And the answer is most emphatically *yes*.
>> All that is happening is that the scope of Eclipse as an application
>> integration platform is widening. We focused 100% on RCP when the
>> projects were working on desktop application integration technologies.
>> Now that we have projects working on server-side (Swordfish,
>> EclipseLink, RAP) and device-side (eRCP) runtimes, the messaging is
>> widening to accomodate that.
>>
>> Put another way, RCP is now part of the Eclipse runtime story, rather
>> than being *the* Eclipse runtime story.
>>
>> We at the EMO always struggle with trying to deliver marketing
>> messages that try to explain what is going on in the projects. Let's
>> face it: we don't tell the projects what to do, so our marketing is
>> largely post-facto. It is trying to explain where the projects have
>> already headed. It's an interesting challenge. Especially since our
>> marketing resources are so limited.
>>
>> Is this helpful? Do you feel we are on the right track, or do we need
>> to reconsider our approach?
>>

--

Eclipse WebMaster - webmaster@eclipse.org
Questions? Consult the WebMaster FAQ at
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Webmaster_FAQ
View my status at http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/WebMaster
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #53731 is a reply to message #53682] Fri, 25 April 2008 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: robert.moestl.joanneum.at

Hello John,

I agree with you.

By the way I use your book "Official eclipse 3.0 FAQs". It is very helpful.

John Arthorne wrote:
> > To summarize it took me far too long to understand that RCP is part
> of Equinox.
>
> It seems the messages are still a bit mixed, because RCP isn't part of
> Equinox. It seems the problem is using the code name "Equinox" on this
> main page where it doesn't seem to fit. I.e., the five listed pillars
> are "Enterprise, Embedded, Equinox, Application Frameworks, Language
> IDE". Four of those categories are descriptive, and one of them is a
> project name that likely has no meaning for a newcomer. Perhaps the
> fifth pillar as listed on the main page should say "Runtimes" or
> "Equinox Runtimes". Of course RCP is more of an application framework
> on top of the Equinox runtime, so it's not clear how it fits into the
> big picture.
> --
>
>
Re: What is the future of RCP? [message #55118 is a reply to message #53387] Wed, 11 June 2008 13:49 Go to previous message
Kevin McGuire is currently offline Kevin McGuire
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Mike, Ian, I find this very confusing.

> Put another way, RCP is now part of the Eclipse runtime story, rather
> than being *the* Eclipse runtime story.

This is backwards. It should be that Equinox is part of the RCP
application technology story.

RCP is a set of technologies that span from runtime to UI. Part of it
is about bundling, but a huge part is the UI configuration. If I look
at Jeff and Jean-Michel's "Eclipse Rich Client Platform", a lot of it is
in fact about the UI. In platform-UI we have many classes and API
specifically for building RCP apps. Replacing the RCP link with the
Equinox portal link implies its part of Equinox, and thus part of the
runtime project. How confusing and misleading!

That aside, after all these years people know the term RCP. I think most
people equate "RCP" with "Non-IDE Eclipse application with customize
look and feel". They see some cool app and ask how it was implemented
and someone says, "its an Eclipse RCP app". And they go, "Cool, I wanna
get me some of that!". So they go to www.eclipse.org and they see...

Nothing.

I really think we're doing ourselves and the community a disservice
here. People know RCP as a way to build a certain kind of desktop
application (the "C" part or RCP). We should be capitalizing on that
popularity and mindshare, focusing people on RCP as a solution route
first, then explain the supporting technologies they have to pick from.

For an example of our poor messaging already in this area, see
http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse-incubator-e4-de v/msg00421.html

Its great we're promoting Equinox, but we should not be doing so by
taking all cool things and putting it under the Equinox banner, and by
doing so, obfuscating the RCP application construction model that we've
worked so hard to establish.

Regards,
Kevin


Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> "Robert Möstl" <robert.moestl@joanneum.at> wrote in message
> news:ftvaln$r13$1@build.eclipse.org...
>
> I am in agreement with what Ian and Boris have already said, but just wanted
> to reinforce one item.
>
>> But will eclipse be an application platform in the future too?
>
> This is the key question. And the answer is most emphatically *yes*. All
> that is happening is that the scope of Eclipse as an application integration
> platform is widening. We focused 100% on RCP when the projects were working
> on desktop application integration technologies. Now that we have projects
> working on server-side (Swordfish, EclipseLink, RAP) and device-side (eRCP)
> runtimes, the messaging is widening to accomodate that.
>
> Put another way, RCP is now part of the Eclipse runtime story, rather than
> being *the* Eclipse runtime story.
>
> We at the EMO always struggle with trying to deliver marketing messages that
> try to explain what is going on in the projects. Let's face it: we don't
> tell the projects what to do, so our marketing is largely post-facto. It is
> trying to explain where the projects have already headed. It's an
> interesting challenge. Especially since our marketing resources are so
> limited.
>
> Is this helpful? Do you feel we are on the right track, or do we need to
> reconsider our approach?
>
>
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