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Home » Eclipse Projects » DTP » how do i "sell" DTP to my company?(exploring DTP and convincing others to use it..)
icon5.gif  how do i "sell" DTP to my company? [message #509074] Thu, 21 January 2010 10:49 Go to next message
elhanan Maayan is currently offline elhanan Maayan
Messages: 131
Registered: November 2009
Senior Member
hi...

i have an eclipse presentation in a few days to company HQ tech leads. i'm trying to convince to use eclispe first as a general development tool (they working on cobol, with custom plugin), but they are not aware of it's other features.

i wanna use eclipses' mylyn (with qc connector), target management, BIRT and DTP as killer apps , problem DTP is the hardest to convince i think because they already have a tool for sql browsing and editing (oracle sql developer) and now that new table wizard has been it's less appealing, problem is i think you use it to integrate and extend it for cobol developers, but i don't know exactly what extensions and customizations can be applied.

any help?
Re: how do i "sell" DTP to my company? [message #510179 is a reply to message #509074] Tue, 26 January 2010 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian Fitzpatrick is currently offline Brian Fitzpatrick
Messages: 495
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
elhanan wrote:
> hi...
>
> i have an eclipse presentation in a few days to company HQ tech leads.
> i'm trying to convince to use eclispe first as a general development
> tool (they working on cobol, with custom plugin), but they are not aware
> of it's other features.
>
> i wanna use eclipses' mylyn (with qc connector), target management,
> BIRT and DTP as killer apps , problem DTP is the hardest to convince i
> think because they already have a tool for sql browsing and editing
> (oracle sql developer) and now that new table wizard has been it's less
> appealing, problem is i think you use it to integrate and extend it for
> cobol developers, but i don't know exactly what extensions and
> customizations can be applied.
> any help?

Hi there...

Selling DTP to an organization is definitely a tough part of the
process. It took quite a while to get my old company to buy in and just
recently their interest waned, forcing me to go to another company.

With less and less support from the community over the last couple of
years, it's been more and more difficult to not only attract new
developers, but to keep our older ones. We've had a lot of attrition.

So I hear your pain, especially with things like the New Table Wizard.
In that case, it hadn't been updated in years because the folks who
contributed it didn't have the people to invest in maintaining it.
Unfortunately, none of the rest of us have the time to continue
maintaining it either. The second big issue with that code was that it
wasn't generic and was kind of clunky.

If you'd like to contribute some time and patches to the component
(which is still in CVS, just not part of the build), we'd love to have
the help!

On the Cobol side... This is the first request we've had on that front
that I know about. What exactly are you looking at integrating? The Data
Source Explorer and most of the rest of the components come to think of
it are pretty generic, though all Eclipse & Java code.

--Fitz
Re: how do i "sell" DTP to my company? [message #510270 is a reply to message #510179] Wed, 27 January 2010 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian Payton is currently offline Brian Payton
Messages: 152
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Fitz has summarized some of the negatives, but here's a few positives
for DTP:
- Unlike a product such as Oracle SQL Developer, DTP is open source, so
you can get the source code and do what you want with it (within the
terms of the EPL of course, but the EPL is a "permissive" license).
- DTP was designed from the start to support heterogeneous data sources.
So if you have more than just Oracle DB's, you might get some value
from DTP.
- Several commercial products have been released on the DTP code base
(including IBM Optim Developer Studio, Ingres CAFE, and others), so DTP
is has a lot of well-tested functional components.

Brian Fitzpatrick wrote:
> elhanan wrote:
>> hi...
>>
>> i have an eclipse presentation in a few days to company HQ tech leads.
>> i'm trying to convince to use eclispe first as a general development
>> tool (they working on cobol, with custom plugin), but they are not
>> aware of it's other features.
>>
>> i wanna use eclipses' mylyn (with qc connector), target management,
>> BIRT and DTP as killer apps , problem DTP is the hardest to convince
>> i think because they already have a tool for sql browsing and editing
>> (oracle sql developer) and now that new table wizard has been it's
>> less appealing, problem is i think you use it to integrate and extend
>> it for cobol developers, but i don't know exactly what extensions and
>> customizations can be applied.
>> any help?
>
> Hi there...
>
> Selling DTP to an organization is definitely a tough part of the
> process. It took quite a while to get my old company to buy in and just
> recently their interest waned, forcing me to go to another company.
>
> With less and less support from the community over the last couple of
> years, it's been more and more difficult to not only attract new
> developers, but to keep our older ones. We've had a lot of attrition.
>
> So I hear your pain, especially with things like the New Table Wizard.
> In that case, it hadn't been updated in years because the folks who
> contributed it didn't have the people to invest in maintaining it.
> Unfortunately, none of the rest of us have the time to continue
> maintaining it either. The second big issue with that code was that it
> wasn't generic and was kind of clunky.
>
> If you'd like to contribute some time and patches to the component
> (which is still in CVS, just not part of the build), we'd love to have
> the help!
>
> On the Cobol side... This is the first request we've had on that front
> that I know about. What exactly are you looking at integrating? The Data
> Source Explorer and most of the rest of the components come to think of
> it are pretty generic, though all Eclipse & Java code.
>
> --Fitz
Re: how do i "sell" DTP to my company? [message #546887 is a reply to message #509074] Wed, 14 July 2010 13:49 Go to previous message
dhartford  is currently offline dhartford
Messages: 26
Registered: July 2010
Junior Member
I've been doing similar review of RDBMS tools and, as always, depending on your actual usage most people that only need to support one database type end up adopting the 'home team' sql toolkit (Enterprise Manager/MS SQL, Mysql Workbench/Mysql, etc).

If you get into the area of (app) developers working across multiple databases, they will lean more towards user-facing tools (usually non-eclipse) like Sql Workbench/j or TOAD, but I think this is mainly because those UI's are laser-focused on the need, as well as the mental-separation of the Eclipse Code Development Environment and alt-tabbing to the RDBMS tool to change context/change mindset (i.e. changing current perspective isn't good enough, sometimes you want to look at the code and the RDBMS at the same time, which would lead to two eclipse running at the same time if using an eclipse RDBMS tool).

As for eclipse-integrated RDBMS tools, I haven't found one I liked, but I *do* like it when my app-dev tools integrate easily with available RDBMS hooks and tools to allow quick viewing of data and/or single setup that works across multiple tools (JPA, Hibernate Tools project for example), which is where DTP seems to be doing well.
Re: how do i "sell" DTP to my company? [message #597119 is a reply to message #510179] Wed, 27 January 2010 01:51 Go to previous message
Brian Payton is currently offline Brian Payton
Messages: 152
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Fitz has summarized some of the negatives, but here's a few positives
for DTP:
- Unlike a product such as Oracle SQL Developer, DTP is open source, so
you can get the source code and do what you want with it (within the
terms of the EPL of course, but the EPL is a "permissive" license).
- DTP was designed from the start to support heterogeneous data sources.
So if you have more than just Oracle DB's, you might get some value
from DTP.
- Several commercial products have been released on the DTP code base
(including IBM Optim Developer Studio, Ingres CAFE, and others), so DTP
is has a lot of well-tested functional components.

Brian Fitzpatrick wrote:
> elhanan wrote:
>> hi...
>>
>> i have an eclipse presentation in a few days to company HQ tech leads.
>> i'm trying to convince to use eclispe first as a general development
>> tool (they working on cobol, with custom plugin), but they are not
>> aware of it's other features.
>>
>> i wanna use eclipses' mylyn (with qc connector), target management,
>> BIRT and DTP as killer apps , problem DTP is the hardest to convince
>> i think because they already have a tool for sql browsing and editing
>> (oracle sql developer) and now that new table wizard has been it's
>> less appealing, problem is i think you use it to integrate and extend
>> it for cobol developers, but i don't know exactly what extensions and
>> customizations can be applied.
>> any help?
>
> Hi there...
>
> Selling DTP to an organization is definitely a tough part of the
> process. It took quite a while to get my old company to buy in and just
> recently their interest waned, forcing me to go to another company.
>
> With less and less support from the community over the last couple of
> years, it's been more and more difficult to not only attract new
> developers, but to keep our older ones. We've had a lot of attrition.
>
> So I hear your pain, especially with things like the New Table Wizard.
> In that case, it hadn't been updated in years because the folks who
> contributed it didn't have the people to invest in maintaining it.
> Unfortunately, none of the rest of us have the time to continue
> maintaining it either. The second big issue with that code was that it
> wasn't generic and was kind of clunky.
>
> If you'd like to contribute some time and patches to the component
> (which is still in CVS, just not part of the build), we'd love to have
> the help!
>
> On the Cobol side... This is the first request we've had on that front
> that I know about. What exactly are you looking at integrating? The Data
> Source Explorer and most of the rest of the components come to think of
> it are pretty generic, though all Eclipse & Java code.
>
> --Fitz
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