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DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #492637] Wed, 21 October 2009 08:22 Go to next message
Knut Lamvik is currently offline Knut LamvikFriend
Messages: 2
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
I'm working my way through Richard Gronback's book Eclipse Modeling Project and I'm stuck. I'm advised to ask in the amalgamation newsgroup, but the group is down and there's no thread for it in this forum. Where do I ask?

My present problem is related to the tooltip chapter 4.4.5 where the workflow route won't work, and I need a step-by-step rundown of the workaround so that I can compile and continue reading. But to my knowledge there's no errata available. Am I wrong?

I think this forum should have a section called Books, and I think each book in the Eclipse Series should have it's own dedicated thread.

Thanks,
Knut
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #492660 is a reply to message #492637] Wed, 21 October 2009 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26283
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Knut,

I'm prompting the new Amalgam committers to more actively follow that
newsgroup. It's the best I can do personally...


Knut Lamvik wrote:
> I'm working my way through Richard Gronback's book Eclipse Modeling
> Project and I'm stuck. I'm advised to ask in the amalgamation
> newsgroup, but the group is down and there's no thread for it in this
> forum. Where do I ask?
>
> My present problem is related to the tooltip chapter 4.4.5 where the
> workflow route won't work, and I need a step-by-step rundown of the
> workaround so that I can compile and continue reading. But to my
> knowledge there's no errata available. Am I wrong?
>
> I think this forum should have a section called Books, and I think
> each book in the Eclipse Series should have it's own dedicated thread.
>
> Thanks,
> Knut
>
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #492909 is a reply to message #492637] Thu, 22 October 2009 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
I think that the problem is both financial with the non-existing open source business model and with the non-adoption of new modeling technologies such as DSL and EMF. Many ideas but today almost all talented members have left these technologies because they can't make a living from them !! Embarrassed


Vlad
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #492915 is a reply to message #492909] Thu, 22 October 2009 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26283
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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Vlad,

The problem is that Rich wasn't monitoring the newsgroup given other
responsibilities he's taken on.

There are certainly business model problems, not just with open source
but also with closed source in general:

http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2009/07/grieving-over-death-of- cash-cow.html

One the primary problems is the inability or unwillingness to measure
the value generated by frameworks:
< http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html>


http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html

I have no idea what non-adoption you're talking about. EMF is in fact
widely adopted and the new Xtext technology is rapidly growing in
popularity.

In any case, your cries of doom seem premature at best.


Vlad Varnica wrote:
> I think that the problem is both financial with the non-existing open
> source business model and with the non-adoption of new modeling
> technologies such as DSL and EMF. Many ideas but today almost all
> talented members have left these technologies because they can't make
> a living from them !! :blush:
>
> Vlad

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Vlad,<br>
<br>
The problem is that Rich wasn't monitoring the newsgroup given other
responsibilities he's taken on.   <br>
<br>
There are certainly business model problems, not just with open source
but also with closed source in general:<br>
<blockquote><a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2009/07/grieving-over-death-of- cash-cow.html"> http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2009/07/grieving-over-death-of- cash-cow.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
One the primary problems is the inability or unwillingness to measure
the value generated by frameworks:<a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html"><br>
</a>
<blockquote><a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html"> http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
I have no idea what non-adoption you're talking about. EMF is in fact
widely adopted and the new Xtext technology is rapidly growing in
popularity.<br>
<br>
In any case, your cries of doom seem premature at best.<br>
<br>
<br>
Vlad Varnica wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hbpc24$irn$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">I
think that the problem is both financial with the non-existing open
source business model and with the non-adoption of new modeling
technologies such as DSL and EMF. Many ideas but today almost all
talented members have left these technologies because they can't make a
living from them !!  :blush: <br>
<br>
Vlad
<br>
</blockquote>
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Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #493099 is a reply to message #492909] Fri, 23 October 2009 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sven Efftinge is currently offline Sven EfftingeFriend
Messages: 1771
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I guess you're talking of your company's situation.
Note, that I lead a team of highly talented members working full time on
Eclipse Modeling technology. And guess what, we all can make a living
from that, because of our company's (itemis) great open source business
model.

Sven

Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> I think that the problem is both financial with the non-existing open
> source business model and with the non-adoption of new modeling
> technologies such as DSL and EMF. Many ideas but today almost all
> talented members have left these technologies because they can't make a
> living from them !! :blush:
>
> Vlad


--
Need professional support for Eclipse Modeling?
Go visit: http://xtext.itemis.com


--
Need professional support on Xtext or Xtend?
Mail to: xtext (at) itemis.com
Twitter : @svenefftinge
Blog : blog.efftinge.de
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #493132 is a reply to message #493099] Fri, 23 October 2009 10:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
Hi Sven and Ed,

Yes, my company is struggling because Integrators such as Itemis are telling dream stories to stupid end user companies which believe them !! This stupid story is under eclipse foundation blessings which is pleased to promote its crap modeling technologies.

I have seen a company paying over 200 000 euro of consulting just to realize after two years that what they want to do is impossible with Eclipse open source projects. If they have purchased just 10 000 euro of Omondo EclipseUML licenses we would have extended our tool and have done the job for free as part of maintenance and support strategy. They would have immediately started to model their business needs and would not have been stuck in mechanist for over 24 months.

Modeling software is not dead because we will not give up our technological convictions in front of open source which is destroying any financial value and conviction in the future of software. Some large public companies or integrators are trying to convince us to change because of their own internal political & historical ridiculous choices. The answer is NO !!
We will not sell our soul to the devil and will wait as many years as needed to build a long term profitable business on Eclipse technologies which are not open sourced Twisted Evil

Last week I was listening to Larry Elisson who said that even if all companies are investing in consulting companies he prefers to focus on software and hardware. Do you really think that he is stupid ?

Vlad
Omondo
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #493139 is a reply to message #493132] Fri, 23 October 2009 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26283
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad,

Comments below.


Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Hi Sven and Ed,
>
> Yes, my company is struggling because Integrators such as Itemis are
> telling dream stories to stupid end user companies which believe them !!
I always think it's not possible for you be even more ignorant and
crass, yet you always prove me wrong.
> This stupid story is under eclipse foundation blessings which is
> pleased to promote its crap modeling technologies.
You're really getting very close to the boarder line I must say. I'd
suggest you set up your soapbox somewhere else. It's particularly ironic
that someone so critical of Eclipse continues to claim they're a member
of the Eclipse Foundation and even more ironic that you used all this
crap modeling technology to build the Omondo technology stack. I
suppose you'll claim you made a silk purse out of a sows ear...
>
> I have seen a company paying over 200 000 euro of consulting just to
> realize after two years that what they want to do is impossible with
> Eclipse open source projects.
Oh really. I can only imagine.
> If they have purchased just 10 000 euro of Omondo EclipseUML licenses
> we would have extended our tool and have done the job for free as part
> of maintenance and support strategy.
Perhaps your shrill cries scared them away.
> They would have immediately started to model their business needs and
> would not have been stuck in mechanist for over 24 months.
Live and learn.
>
> Modeling software is not dead
Yes, claims that it is are premature.
> because we will not give up our technological convictions in front of
> open source which is destroying any financial value and conviction in
> the future of software.
Woe, strife, the end is nigh...
> Some large public companies or integrators are trying to convince us
> to change because of their own internal political & historical
> ridiculous choices.
I suppose it's self evident that they too must be stupid. Pretty much
everyone seems to be, except you.
> The answer is NO !! We will not sell our soul to the devil
It's probably going pretty cheap these days.
> and will wait as many years as needed to build a long term profitable
> business on Eclipse technologies which are not open sourced :twisted:
Certainly your logic is tortuous.
> Last week I was listening to Larry Elisson who said that even if all
> companies are investing in consulting companies he prefers to focus on
> software and hardware.
I invest a lot in EMF's software.
> Do you really think that he is stupid ?
No, but I have my doubts about you.
>
> Vlad
> Omondo
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #493298 is a reply to message #493139] Sat, 24 October 2009 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
Ed,

You know Ed that I really don't like you and you fully deserve it Very Happy

The current problem is that you should realize that to improve EMF for DSL use or GMF or ATL or other projects you need a large financial investment which can not be made by just open source contributors. These projects at the current stage are not really usable in a professional project and are more focusing on mechanics than on usability. These projects are not also new projects but have been developped few years ago, so no more excuse and stop telling us dreaming stories that it would improve with the time. No it will not get better !!

My problem is that this 100% open source approach strategy is killing any business value for my company and we don't want therefore to invest in your frameworks anymore because it would never be reliable while reducing the value of the piece of software we develop on the top of them.
We have developed our framework on the top of Ecore and are not anymore using EMF serialisation because we don't believe in this framework as a solution for the use of UML.

I feel bad when I personally spent 3 tears training young master graduates coming out of university to become Ecore/EMF specialist and see that I have to resign their contracts because we can't pay them anymore. This is a real human tragedy and you are responsible Ed because Eclipse users believe you as an EMF priest in this madness technological orientation you drive us Embarrassed


Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #493359 is a reply to message #493298] Sun, 25 October 2009 07:54 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26283
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Ed,
>
> You know Ed that I really don't like you and you fully deserve it :d
I used to be concerned that everyone should like me, but as I get older,
that's gotten to be less important and occasionally even irrelevant. In
any case, you can't please all the people all of the time.
> The current problem is that you should realize that to improve EMF for
> DSL use or GMF or ATL or other projects you need a large financial
> investment which can not be made by just open source contributors.
You'd be amazed how much can be accomplished with modest investment.
Where there's a will there's a way. If I had a dollar from every free
loader, there's be more than enough of money to go around.
> These projects at the current stage are not really usable in a
> professional project and are more focusing on mechanics than on
> usability.
I believe you're confusing two related but separate topics. The polish
of the tools is an issue separate from the quality of the underlying
frameworks and runtimes.
> These projects are not also new projects but have been developped few
> years ago, so no more excuse and stop telling us dreaming stories that
> it would improve with the time.
A few years ago there was no Ecore Tools editor, but now it's really
quite nice. Technologies like Teneo and CDO have matured and are
contributing significant value. Compare helps address a very hard
problem. Xtext is new and very cool. Eclipse Modeling technology leads
the industry in this space.
> No it will not get better !!
You can assert whatever you like, but yelling and jumping up and down
isn't going to make it so.
>
> My problem is that this 100% open source approach strategy is killing
> any business value for my company
That's unfortunately, but the genie is out of the bottle: the world is
rife with freetards and cheaptards. Learn to deal with it.

Keep in mind too that there are deeper reasons why open source is
killing closed commercial source. Software consumers recognize that way
too much of commercial technology is fly by night, driven by the teflon
programming
< http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/04/teflon-programming.html> mindset.
Who wants to risk their IT infrastructure on technology that's bound to
be ripped out from under you five or ten years from now? Better to
invest in technology you can control or modify to suit your needs...
> and we don't want therefore to invest in your frameworks anymore
> because it would never be reliable
You've never invested a penny in the frameworks upon which you built
your products, but we've nevertheless answered all questions and fixed
any reported problems.
> while reducing the value of the piece of software we develop on the
> top of them.
You realize of course that not everyone is trying to build a commercial
modeling product on top of free modeling infrastructure. Many simply
want to use it for other purposes. Not only that, but some of those
folks are starting to see the good business value of investing the same
dollars they currently spend on products on developing the capabilities
they need in the open source code base instead.
> We have developed our framework on the top of Ecore and are not
> anymore using EMF serialisation because we don't believe in this
> framework as a solution for the use of UML.
XMI/XML serialization is nice, but in many ways far from ideal; it
definitely falls in the category of "you can't please all the people all
the time." Keep in mind too that repository-based technologies like CDO
offer an excellent alternative.
>
> I feel bad when I personally spent 3 tears training young master
> graduates coming out of university to become Ecore/EMF specialist and
> see that I have to resign their contracts because we can't pay them
> anymore.
They're likely to find their skills prove useful in the future. I spent
many years learning calculus and have yet to find an application for
that in my career, but I don't consider that tragic.
> This is a real human tragedy and you are responsible Ed because
> Eclipse users believe you as an EMF priest in this madness
> technological orientation you drive us :blush:
The melodrama is overwhelming, almost like another Darfur. At the end
of the day, everyone needs to take responsibility for their own choices.
>
>

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Vlad,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Vlad Varnica wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">Ed,
<br>
<br>
You know Ed that I really don't like you and you fully deserve it  :d <br>
</blockquote>
I used to be concerned that everyone should like me, but as I get
older, that's gotten to be less important and occasionally even
irrelevant.  In any case, you can't please all the people all of the
time.
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">The
current problem is that you should realize that to improve EMF for DSL
use or GMF or ATL or other projects you need a large financial
investment which can not be made by just open source contributors.</blockquote>
You'd be amazed how much can be accomplished with modest investment. 
Where there's a will there's a way.  If I had a dollar from every free
loader, there's be more than enough of money to go around.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
These projects at the current stage are not really usable in a
professional project and are more focusing on mechanics than on
usability. </blockquote>
I believe you're confusing two related but separate topics. The polish
of the tools is an issue separate from the quality of the underlying
frameworks and runtimes.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">These
projects are not also new projects but have been developped few years
ago, so no more excuse and stop telling us dreaming stories that it
would improve with the time.</blockquote>
A few years ago there was no Ecore Tools editor, but now it's really
quite nice.  Technologies like Teneo and CDO have matured and are
contributing significant value.  Compare helps address a very hard
problem.  Xtext is new and very cool.  Eclipse Modeling technology
leads the industry in this space.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"> No
it will not get better !!
<br>
</blockquote>
You can assert whatever you like, but yelling and jumping up and down
isn't going to make it so.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"><br>
My problem is that this 100% open source approach strategy is killing
any business value for my company </blockquote>
That's unfortunately, but the genie is out of the bottle: the world is
rife with freetards and cheaptards.  Learn to deal with it.  <br>
<br>
Keep in mind too that there are deeper reasons why open source is
killing closed commercial source.  Software consumers recognize that
way too much of commercial technology is fly by night, driven by the <a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/04/teflon-programming.html">teflon
programming</a> mindset. Who wants to risk their IT infrastructure on
technology that's bound to be ripped out from under you five or ten
years from now?  Better to invest in technology you can control or
modify to suit your needs...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">and
we don't want therefore to invest in your frameworks anymore because it
would never be reliable </blockquote>
You've never invested a penny in the frameworks upon which you built
your products, but we've nevertheless answered all questions and fixed
any reported problems.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">while
reducing the value of the piece of software we develop on the top of
them.</blockquote>
You realize of course that not everyone is trying to build a commercial
modeling product on top of free modeling infrastructure.  Many simply
want to use it for other purposes.  Not only that, but some of those
folks are starting to see the good business value of investing the same
dollars they currently spend on products on developing the capabilities
they need in the open source code base instead.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"> We
have developed our framework on the top of Ecore and are not anymore
using EMF serialisation because we don't believe in this framework as a
solution for the use of UML.
<br>
</blockquote>
XMI/XML serialization is nice, but in many ways far from ideal; it
definitely falls in the category of "you can't please all the people
all the time."  Keep in mind too that repository-based technologies
like CDO offer an excellent alternative.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"><br>
I feel bad when I personally spent 3 tears training young master
graduates coming out of university to become Ecore/EMF specialist and
see that I have to resign their contracts because we can't pay them
anymore. </blockquote>
They're likely to find their skills prove useful in the future.  I
spent many years learning calculus and have yet to find an application
for that in my career, but I don't consider that tragic.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">This
is a real human tragedy  and you are responsible Ed because Eclipse
users believe you as an EMF priest in this madness technological
orientation you drive us  :blush: <br>
</blockquote>
The melodrama is overwhelming, almost like another Darfur.  At the end
of the day, everyone needs to take responsibility for their own choices.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

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Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #618222 is a reply to message #492909] Thu, 22 October 2009 11:03 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26283
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------090603040303020101030205
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Vlad,

The problem is that Rich wasn't monitoring the newsgroup given other
responsibilities he's taken on.

There are certainly business model problems, not just with open source
but also with closed source in general:

http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2009/07/grieving-over-death-of- cash-cow.html

One the primary problems is the inability or unwillingness to measure
the value generated by frameworks:
< http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html>


http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html

I have no idea what non-adoption you're talking about. EMF is in fact
widely adopted and the new Xtext technology is rapidly growing in
popularity.

In any case, your cries of doom seem premature at best.


Vlad Varnica wrote:
> I think that the problem is both financial with the non-existing open
> source business model and with the non-adoption of new modeling
> technologies such as DSL and EMF. Many ideas but today almost all
> talented members have left these technologies because they can't make
> a living from them !! :blush:
>
> Vlad

--------------090603040303020101030205
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Vlad,<br>
<br>
The problem is that Rich wasn't monitoring the newsgroup given other
responsibilities he's taken on.   <br>
<br>
There are certainly business model problems, not just with open source
but also with closed source in general:<br>
<blockquote><a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2009/07/grieving-over-death-of- cash-cow.html"> http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2009/07/grieving-over-death-of- cash-cow.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
One the primary problems is the inability or unwillingness to measure
the value generated by frameworks:<a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html"><br>
</a>
<blockquote><a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html"> http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/01/manufacturing-pofitable -cars-with-free.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
I have no idea what non-adoption you're talking about. EMF is in fact
widely adopted and the new Xtext technology is rapidly growing in
popularity.<br>
<br>
In any case, your cries of doom seem premature at best.<br>
<br>
<br>
Vlad Varnica wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hbpc24$irn$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">I
think that the problem is both financial with the non-existing open
source business model and with the non-adoption of new modeling
technologies such as DSL and EMF. Many ideas but today almost all
talented members have left these technologies because they can't make a
living from them !!  :blush: <br>
<br>
Vlad
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

--------------090603040303020101030205--
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #618223 is a reply to message #492909] Fri, 23 October 2009 07:07 Go to previous message
Sven Efftinge is currently offline Sven EfftingeFriend
Messages: 1771
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I guess you're talking of your company's situation.
Note, that I lead a team of highly talented members working full time on
Eclipse Modeling technology. And guess what, we all can make a living
from that, because of our company's (itemis) great open source business
model.

Sven

Vlad Varnica schrieb:
> I think that the problem is both financial with the non-existing open
> source business model and with the non-adoption of new modeling
> technologies such as DSL and EMF. Many ideas but today almost all
> talented members have left these technologies because they can't make a
> living from them !! :blush:
>
> Vlad


--
Need professional support for Eclipse Modeling?
Go visit: http://xtext.itemis.com


--
Need professional support on Xtext or Xtend?
Mail to: xtext (at) itemis.com
Twitter : @svenefftinge
Blog : blog.efftinge.de
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #618224 is a reply to message #493099] Fri, 23 October 2009 10:34 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
Hi Sven and Ed,

Yes, my company is struggling because Integrators such as Itemis are telling dream stories to stupid end user companies which believe them !! This stupid story is under eclipse foundation blessings which is pleased to promote its crap modeling technologies.

I have seen a company paying over 200 000 euro of consulting just to realize after two years that what they want to do is impossible with Eclipse open source projects. If they have purchased just 10 000 euro of Omondo EclipseUML licenses we would have extended our tool and have done the job for free as part of maintenance and support strategy. They would have immediately started to model their business needs and would not have been stuck in mechanist for over 24 months.

Modeling software is not dead because we will not give up our technological convictions in front of open source which is destroying any financial value and conviction in the future of software. Some large public companies or integrators are trying to convince us to change because of their own internal political & historical ridiculous choices. The answer is NO !!
We will not sell our soul to the devil and will wait as many years as needed to build a long term profitable business on Eclipse technologies which are not open sourced :twisted:

Last week I was listening to Larry Elisson who said that even if all companies are investing in consulting companies he prefers to focus on software and hardware. Do you really think that he is stupid ?

Vlad
Omondo
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #618225 is a reply to message #493132] Fri, 23 October 2009 11:04 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26283
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Vlad,

Comments below.


Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Hi Sven and Ed,
>
> Yes, my company is struggling because Integrators such as Itemis are
> telling dream stories to stupid end user companies which believe them !!
I always think it's not possible for you be even more ignorant and
crass, yet you always prove me wrong.
> This stupid story is under eclipse foundation blessings which is
> pleased to promote its crap modeling technologies.
You're really getting very close to the boarder line I must say. I'd
suggest you set up your soapbox somewhere else. It's particularly ironic
that someone so critical of Eclipse continues to claim they're a member
of the Eclipse Foundation and even more ironic that you used all this
crap modeling technology to build the Omondo technology stack. I
suppose you'll claim you made a silk purse out of a sows ear...
>
> I have seen a company paying over 200 000 euro of consulting just to
> realize after two years that what they want to do is impossible with
> Eclipse open source projects.
Oh really. I can only imagine.
> If they have purchased just 10 000 euro of Omondo EclipseUML licenses
> we would have extended our tool and have done the job for free as part
> of maintenance and support strategy.
Perhaps your shrill cries scared them away.
> They would have immediately started to model their business needs and
> would not have been stuck in mechanist for over 24 months.
Live and learn.
>
> Modeling software is not dead
Yes, claims that it is are premature.
> because we will not give up our technological convictions in front of
> open source which is destroying any financial value and conviction in
> the future of software.
Woe, strife, the end is nigh...
> Some large public companies or integrators are trying to convince us
> to change because of their own internal political & historical
> ridiculous choices.
I suppose it's self evident that they too must be stupid. Pretty much
everyone seems to be, except you.
> The answer is NO !! We will not sell our soul to the devil
It's probably going pretty cheap these days.
> and will wait as many years as needed to build a long term profitable
> business on Eclipse technologies which are not open sourced :twisted:
Certainly your logic is tortuous.
> Last week I was listening to Larry Elisson who said that even if all
> companies are investing in consulting companies he prefers to focus on
> software and hardware.
I invest a lot in EMF's software.
> Do you really think that he is stupid ?
No, but I have my doubts about you.
>
> Vlad
> Omondo
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #618267 is a reply to message #493139] Sat, 24 October 2009 13:19 Go to previous message
Vlad Varnica is currently offline Vlad VarnicaFriend
Messages: 546
Registered: July 2009
Location: Milton Keynes - UK
Senior Member
Ed,

You know Ed that I really don't like you and you fully deserve it :d

The current problem is that you should realize that to improve EMF for DSL use or GMF or ATL or other projects you need a large financial investment which can not be made by just open source contributors. These projects at the current stage are not really usable in a professional project and are more focusing on mechanics than on usability. These projects are not also new projects but have been developped few years ago, so no more excuse and stop telling us dreaming stories that it would improve with the time. No it will not get better !!

My problem is that this 100% open source approach strategy is killing any business value for my company and we don't want therefore to invest in your frameworks anymore because it would never be reliable while reducing the value of the piece of software we develop on the top of them.
We have developed our framework on the top of Ecore and are not anymore using EMF serialisation because we don't believe in this framework as a solution for the use of UML.

I feel bad when I personally spent 3 tears training young master graduates coming out of university to become Ecore/EMF specialist and see that I have to resign their contracts because we can't pay them anymore. This is a real human tragedy and you are responsible Ed because Eclipse users believe you as an EMF priest in this madness technological orientation you drive us :blush:
Re: DSL-book: Where's the errata? [message #618268 is a reply to message #618267] Sun, 25 October 2009 07:54 Go to previous message
Ed Merks is currently offline Ed MerksFriend
Messages: 26283
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Vlad,

Comments below.

Vlad Varnica wrote:
> Ed,
>
> You know Ed that I really don't like you and you fully deserve it :d
I used to be concerned that everyone should like me, but as I get older,
that's gotten to be less important and occasionally even irrelevant. In
any case, you can't please all the people all of the time.
> The current problem is that you should realize that to improve EMF for
> DSL use or GMF or ATL or other projects you need a large financial
> investment which can not be made by just open source contributors.
You'd be amazed how much can be accomplished with modest investment.
Where there's a will there's a way. If I had a dollar from every free
loader, there's be more than enough of money to go around.
> These projects at the current stage are not really usable in a
> professional project and are more focusing on mechanics than on
> usability.
I believe you're confusing two related but separate topics. The polish
of the tools is an issue separate from the quality of the underlying
frameworks and runtimes.
> These projects are not also new projects but have been developped few
> years ago, so no more excuse and stop telling us dreaming stories that
> it would improve with the time.
A few years ago there was no Ecore Tools editor, but now it's really
quite nice. Technologies like Teneo and CDO have matured and are
contributing significant value. Compare helps address a very hard
problem. Xtext is new and very cool. Eclipse Modeling technology leads
the industry in this space.
> No it will not get better !!
You can assert whatever you like, but yelling and jumping up and down
isn't going to make it so.
>
> My problem is that this 100% open source approach strategy is killing
> any business value for my company
That's unfortunately, but the genie is out of the bottle: the world is
rife with freetards and cheaptards. Learn to deal with it.

Keep in mind too that there are deeper reasons why open source is
killing closed commercial source. Software consumers recognize that way
too much of commercial technology is fly by night, driven by the teflon
programming
< http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/04/teflon-programming.html> mindset.
Who wants to risk their IT infrastructure on technology that's bound to
be ripped out from under you five or ten years from now? Better to
invest in technology you can control or modify to suit your needs...
> and we don't want therefore to invest in your frameworks anymore
> because it would never be reliable
You've never invested a penny in the frameworks upon which you built
your products, but we've nevertheless answered all questions and fixed
any reported problems.
> while reducing the value of the piece of software we develop on the
> top of them.
You realize of course that not everyone is trying to build a commercial
modeling product on top of free modeling infrastructure. Many simply
want to use it for other purposes. Not only that, but some of those
folks are starting to see the good business value of investing the same
dollars they currently spend on products on developing the capabilities
they need in the open source code base instead.
> We have developed our framework on the top of Ecore and are not
> anymore using EMF serialisation because we don't believe in this
> framework as a solution for the use of UML.
XMI/XML serialization is nice, but in many ways far from ideal; it
definitely falls in the category of "you can't please all the people all
the time." Keep in mind too that repository-based technologies like CDO
offer an excellent alternative.
>
> I feel bad when I personally spent 3 tears training young master
> graduates coming out of university to become Ecore/EMF specialist and
> see that I have to resign their contracts because we can't pay them
> anymore.
They're likely to find their skills prove useful in the future. I spent
many years learning calculus and have yet to find an application for
that in my career, but I don't consider that tragic.
> This is a real human tragedy and you are responsible Ed because
> Eclipse users believe you as an EMF priest in this madness
> technological orientation you drive us :blush:
The melodrama is overwhelming, almost like another Darfur. At the end
of the day, everyone needs to take responsibility for their own choices.
>
>

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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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Vlad,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
Vlad Varnica wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">Ed,
<br>
<br>
You know Ed that I really don't like you and you fully deserve it  :d <br>
</blockquote>
I used to be concerned that everyone should like me, but as I get
older, that's gotten to be less important and occasionally even
irrelevant.  In any case, you can't please all the people all of the
time.
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">The
current problem is that you should realize that to improve EMF for DSL
use or GMF or ATL or other projects you need a large financial
investment which can not be made by just open source contributors.</blockquote>
You'd be amazed how much can be accomplished with modest investment. 
Where there's a will there's a way.  If I had a dollar from every free
loader, there's be more than enough of money to go around.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">
These projects at the current stage are not really usable in a
professional project and are more focusing on mechanics than on
usability. </blockquote>
I believe you're confusing two related but separate topics. The polish
of the tools is an issue separate from the quality of the underlying
frameworks and runtimes.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">These
projects are not also new projects but have been developped few years
ago, so no more excuse and stop telling us dreaming stories that it
would improve with the time.</blockquote>
A few years ago there was no Ecore Tools editor, but now it's really
quite nice.  Technologies like Teneo and CDO have matured and are
contributing significant value.  Compare helps address a very hard
problem.  Xtext is new and very cool.  Eclipse Modeling technology
leads the industry in this space.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"> No
it will not get better !!
<br>
</blockquote>
You can assert whatever you like, but yelling and jumping up and down
isn't going to make it so.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"><br>
My problem is that this 100% open source approach strategy is killing
any business value for my company </blockquote>
That's unfortunately, but the genie is out of the bottle: the world is
rife with freetards and cheaptards.  Learn to deal with it.  <br>
<br>
Keep in mind too that there are deeper reasons why open source is
killing closed commercial source.  Software consumers recognize that
way too much of commercial technology is fly by night, driven by the <a
href=" http://ed-merks.blogspot.com/2008/04/teflon-programming.html">teflon
programming</a> mindset. Who wants to risk their IT infrastructure on
technology that's bound to be ripped out from under you five or ten
years from now?  Better to invest in technology you can control or
modify to suit your needs...<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">and
we don't want therefore to invest in your frameworks anymore because it
would never be reliable </blockquote>
You've never invested a penny in the frameworks upon which you built
your products, but we've nevertheless answered all questions and fixed
any reported problems.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">while
reducing the value of the piece of software we develop on the top of
them.</blockquote>
You realize of course that not everyone is trying to build a commercial
modeling product on top of free modeling infrastructure.  Many simply
want to use it for other purposes.  Not only that, but some of those
folks are starting to see the good business value of investing the same
dollars they currently spend on products on developing the capabilities
they need in the open source code base instead.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"> We
have developed our framework on the top of Ecore and are not anymore
using EMF serialisation because we don't believe in this framework as a
solution for the use of UML.
<br>
</blockquote>
XMI/XML serialization is nice, but in many ways far from ideal; it
definitely falls in the category of "you can't please all the people
all the time."  Keep in mind too that repository-based technologies
like CDO offer an excellent alternative.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"><br>
I feel bad when I personally spent 3 tears training young master
graduates coming out of university to become Ecore/EMF specialist and
see that I have to resign their contracts because we can't pay them
anymore. </blockquote>
They're likely to find their skills prove useful in the future.  I
spent many years learning calculus and have yet to find an application
for that in my career, but I don't consider that tragic.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite">This
is a real human tragedy  and you are responsible Ed because Eclipse
users believe you as an EMF priest in this madness technological
orientation you drive us  :blush: <br>
</blockquote>
The melodrama is overwhelming, almost like another Darfur.  At the end
of the day, everyone needs to take responsibility for their own choices.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:hbuusg$8q0$1@build.eclipse.org" type="cite"><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

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