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Strawman package proposal for Java Developer [message #3770] Wed, 14 February 2007 19:19 Go to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: wayne.beaton._NOSPAM_eclipse.org

Java Developer

* Platform
* JDT
* Visual Editor (Swing only)
* Mylar
* XML Editor

No source code is required with this configuration.

Minimal prerequisites need to be included. If a plug-in is not required
by any of the above-listed components, it doesn't need to be included.

The configuration should specify reasonable "-Xmx" and "-XX:MaxPermSize"
values.

I'm not sure if the XML editor inclusion makes sense, or how much of the
web tools needs to be included to make the XML editor work.

At the end of the day, I am becoming less and less convinced that a Java
Developer package is really needed if there is a "Java Enterprise
Developer" package available.

I'm content with the Visual Editor only including Swing support in this
package. To be honest, the main motivation is that last time I checked,
including SWT support required the PDE be included.

Wayne
Re: Strawman package proposal for Java Developer [message #3793 is a reply to message #3770] Thu, 15 February 2007 07:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: ureupke.innoopract.com

Hey Wayne,

while I can't comment on your other proposals due to a lack of
experience in their given fields, this one made me wonder about its
target audience.

From the name "Java Developer" I take it that the group you intend to
address with this proposal is the same group that currently downloads
the eclipse SDK, but has no need for RCP/Plug-In development capabilities.

This group currently has neither the Visual Editor nor Mylar available,
and might well not need them. I believe that the packages should be kept
as simple as possible, so maybe we should shrink this package to include
only

* Platform
* JDT
* XML Editor, if deemed necessary.

If you intend this package to be a direct rival to the Netbeans IDE,
including the Visual Editor might be necessary just to gain a little on
The Project Formerly Known As Matisse (whatever they may style it these
days).

In a more general vein, you remarked that the packages should only
include the prerequisite plug-ins required by the main features.
Following this thought might lead to some confusion down the road,
because we would rip the prerequisite features apart. Also, the package
specifications could become quite unwieldy if based on plug-ins, not
features.
As such, I think that we should base the packages on feature dependencies.

And that's it for now
-Urs
Re: Strawman package proposal for Java Developer [message #3807 is a reply to message #3770] Thu, 15 February 2007 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com

Wayne Beaton wrote:
> Java Developer
>
> * Platform
> * JDT
> * Visual Editor (Swing only)
> * Mylar
> * XML Editor
>
> No source code is required with this configuration.
>
> Minimal prerequisites need to be included. If a plug-in is not required
> by any of the above-listed components, it doesn't need to be included.
>
> The configuration should specify reasonable "-Xmx" and "-XX:MaxPermSize"
> values.
>
> I'm not sure if the XML editor inclusion makes sense, or how much of the
> web tools needs to be included to make the XML editor work.

I think both XML and Visual editors are going to be key to avoiding the
"Eclipse doesn't do GUI building or XML?! What a heap of trash!" type of
impressions. These days it is a rare Java developer who does not deal
with XML files on a regular basis.
Visual Editor I am willing to re-consider as a separate package,
although it is still in many developers' minds an expected feature. I
guess I'm on the fence about it's inclusion in a Java Developer package.

Eric
Re: Strawman package proposal for Java Developer [message #3862 is a reply to message #3807] Tue, 20 February 2007 20:47 Go to previous message
Eclipse UserFriend
Originally posted by: ian.REMOVE.eclipse.org

>
> I think both XML and Visual editors are going to be key to avoiding the
> "Eclipse doesn't do GUI building or XML?! What a heap of trash!" type of
> impressions. These days it is a rare Java developer who does not deal with
> XML files on a regular basis.

I tend to agree that we need to include VE and XML editing. I also think
we need to include Mylar in this package. Sure right now we don't include
any of these things in the standard SDK but the idea of these packages is to
include the functionality that we think the majority of Java developers will
need.
Re: Strawman package proposal for Java Developer [message #573322 is a reply to message #3770] Thu, 15 February 2007 07:20 Go to previous message
Urs Reupke is currently offline Urs ReupkeFriend
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hey Wayne,

while I can't comment on your other proposals due to a lack of
experience in their given fields, this one made me wonder about its
target audience.

From the name "Java Developer" I take it that the group you intend to
address with this proposal is the same group that currently downloads
the eclipse SDK, but has no need for RCP/Plug-In development capabilities.

This group currently has neither the Visual Editor nor Mylar available,
and might well not need them. I believe that the packages should be kept
as simple as possible, so maybe we should shrink this package to include
only

* Platform
* JDT
* XML Editor, if deemed necessary.

If you intend this package to be a direct rival to the Netbeans IDE,
including the Visual Editor might be necessary just to gain a little on
The Project Formerly Known As Matisse (whatever they may style it these
days).

In a more general vein, you remarked that the packages should only
include the prerequisite plug-ins required by the main features.
Following this thought might lead to some confusion down the road,
because we would rip the prerequisite features apart. Also, the package
specifications could become quite unwieldy if based on plug-ins, not
features.
As such, I think that we should base the packages on feature dependencies.

And that's it for now
-Urs
Re: Strawman package proposal for Java Developer [message #573411 is a reply to message #3770] Thu, 15 February 2007 23:03 Go to previous message
Eric Rizzo is currently offline Eric RizzoFriend
Messages: 2363
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Wayne Beaton wrote:
> Java Developer
>
> * Platform
> * JDT
> * Visual Editor (Swing only)
> * Mylar
> * XML Editor
>
> No source code is required with this configuration.
>
> Minimal prerequisites need to be included. If a plug-in is not required
> by any of the above-listed components, it doesn't need to be included.
>
> The configuration should specify reasonable "-Xmx" and "-XX:MaxPermSize"
> values.
>
> I'm not sure if the XML editor inclusion makes sense, or how much of the
> web tools needs to be included to make the XML editor work.

I think both XML and Visual editors are going to be key to avoiding the
"Eclipse doesn't do GUI building or XML?! What a heap of trash!" type of
impressions. These days it is a rare Java developer who does not deal
with XML files on a regular basis.
Visual Editor I am willing to re-consider as a separate package,
although it is still in many developers' minds an expected feature. I
guess I'm on the fence about it's inclusion in a Java Developer package.

Eric
Re: Strawman package proposal for Java Developer [message #573690 is a reply to message #3807] Tue, 20 February 2007 20:47 Go to previous message
Ian Skerrett is currently offline Ian SkerrettFriend
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
>
> I think both XML and Visual editors are going to be key to avoiding the
> "Eclipse doesn't do GUI building or XML?! What a heap of trash!" type of
> impressions. These days it is a rare Java developer who does not deal with
> XML files on a regular basis.

I tend to agree that we need to include VE and XML editing. I also think
we need to include Mylar in this package. Sure right now we don't include
any of these things in the standard SDK but the idea of these packages is to
include the functionality that we think the majority of Java developers will
need.
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