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Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #3750] Wed, 14 February 2007 14:12 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: wayne.beaton._NOSPAM_eclipse.org

Greetings all. I thought that I might take a stab at a useful exemplary
configuration for the packaging project.

I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"

* Platform
* JDT
* Web tools
* JSF + Dali
* Visual Editor
* Mylar
* Tomcat | Jetty
* XDoclet 1.2.3?

This configuration does not require source code.

I'd like to see minimal prereqs. For example, Web tools requires EMF,
but not all of EMF; I'd like to see only those parts that are actually
required.

Ideally, it'd be good to keep the footprint as small as possible.

The configuration should specify reasonable "-Xmx" and "-XX:MaxPermSize"
values.

I've included Jetty on the list because I've been hearing a lot of
rumbling about it. I'll be honest, I don't know very much about it, or
even if it makes sense to include. I understand that platform is
including it, and wonder if we might be able to leverage that. I believe
that there is a web tools adapter for it (correct me if I'm wrong).

There is a bug for webtools (173925) that in my rich fantasy life will
result in a clever mechanism for automatically downloading and
installing XDoclet. Even if we wind up with Java EE 5.0 support, I think
this package needs to support J2EE 1.4.
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #3762 is a reply to message #3750] Wed, 14 February 2007 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: wayne.beaton._NOSPAM_eclipse.org

I, of course, meant to type "straw man" (or perhaps a "straw person"). Argh.

Wayne
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #3814 is a reply to message #3750] Thu, 15 February 2007 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com

Wayne Beaton wrote:
> Greetings all. I thought that I might take a stab at a useful exemplary
> configuration for the packaging project.
>
> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>
> * Platform
> * JDT
> * Web tools
> * JSF + Dali
> * Visual Editor
> * Mylar
> * Tomcat | Jetty
> * XDoclet 1.2.3?
>

No BIRT? No DataTools?
I know, I know...we can't include everything. But those seems like
pretty in line with "enterprise" development (a somewhat poor name, if
you ask me - although I don't have anything better to offer; I use JEE
technologies for many projects that are not "enterprise.")
Also, if the SOA tools (STP) is ready for prime-time, it would seem to
elong under the "enterprise" heading as well.

What about Modeling stuff? Are you envisioning a separate Modeler package?


> I've included Jetty on the list because I've been hearing a lot of
> rumbling about it. I'll be honest, I don't know very much about it, or
> even if it makes sense to include. I understand that platform is
> including it, and wonder if we might be able to leverage that. I believe
> that there is a web tools adapter for it (correct me if I'm wrong).

There are a couple of Bugzilla entries to track the Jetty effort. I
think the gist is that it is replacing the bundled Tomcat stuff and will
be part of the platform (since Help will depend on it). Here's the bug
#s I have references to:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=173692
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=138390

Eric
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #3835 is a reply to message #3814] Fri, 16 February 2007 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: wayne.beaton._NOSPAM_eclipse.org

Eric Rizzo wrote:

> No BIRT? No DataTools?

DataTools would be included by virtue of having the web tools included.

Other features, like BIRT will still be available via the update site.
While I agree that an "enterprise" package should include more
"enterprise" features out-of-the-box, I'm concerned about having too
heavy a download. It'd also be a shame if we had to have machine
requirements that are very large.

I'm thinking along the lines of "what would 80% of the people who use
this package need it to do?"

I wonder if this should be named "Java EE Developer"?

I think that a separate modeling package should be considered. Perhaps
as a superset of this one (but not necessarily).

Wayne
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #3869 is a reply to message #3835] Tue, 20 February 2007 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ian.REMOVE.eclipse.org

>
> I wonder if this should be named "Java EE Developer"?


I agree. This package is really about Java EE and should be so named.
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #4452 is a reply to message #3750] Fri, 23 February 2007 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ureupke.innoopract.com

Hey Wayne,
you wrote:
> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>
> * Platform
> * JDT
> * Web tools
> * JSF + Dali
> * Visual Editor
> * Mylar
> * Tomcat | Jetty
> * XDoclet 1.2.3?

I am experimenting with the soon to be published initial code for the
packaging project, and have tried to build your proposed configurations.
In doing so, I noticed that there is no separate feature for Tomcat.
It's bundled directly with the platform, but appears on your list
nonetheless.

Did you mention it for any reason beside preventing the ignorant among
us (like me, 5 minutes ago) from shouting at you because you forgot it?

Regards
-Urs
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #4522 is a reply to message #4452] Fri, 23 February 2007 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eclipse5.rizzoweb.com

Urs Reupke wrote:
> Hey Wayne,
> you wrote:
>> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>>
>> * Platform
>> * JDT
>> * Web tools
>> * JSF + Dali
>> * Visual Editor
>> * Mylar
>> * Tomcat | Jetty
>> * XDoclet 1.2.3?
>
> I am experimenting with the soon to be published initial code for the
> packaging project, and have tried to build your proposed configurations.
> In doing so, I noticed that there is no separate feature for Tomcat.
> It's bundled directly with the platform, but appears on your list
> nonetheless.
>
> Did you mention it for any reason beside preventing the ignorant among
> us (like me, 5 minutes ago) from shouting at you because you forgot it?

Do the Bugzilla entries I posted to this thread last week tell you
anything about changes to the way Jetty is replacing Tomcat and how it
is being packaged? Things are changing but I don't remember the details.

Eric
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #4592 is a reply to message #4452] Fri, 23 February 2007 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: wayne.beaton._NOSPAM_eclipse.org

Urs Reupke wrote:

> I am experimenting with the soon to be published initial code for the
> packaging project, and have tried to build your proposed configurations.
> In doing so, I noticed that there is no separate feature for Tomcat.
> It's bundled directly with the platform, but appears on your list
> nonetheless.
>

The Tomcat that's bundled with the platform is going away (see Eric's
comments). At least I understand that the platform team is considering
removing it and using Jetty in it's place.

Ideally, I'd like to see Tomcat bundled and configured for use
out-of-the-box. This is the main reason why I've called attention to it.

I'd be just as happy to have Jetty be configured for servlet/JSP testing
out-of-the-box (assuming that I understand Jetty well enough)

Wayne
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #4731 is a reply to message #3814] Mon, 26 February 2007 14:31 Go to previous message
Krishna Venkatraman is currently offline Krishna Venkatraman
Messages: 1476
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Eric Rizzo wrote:
> Wayne Beaton wrote:
>> Greetings all. I thought that I might take a stab at a useful
>> exemplary configuration for the packaging project.
>>
>> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>>
>> * Platform
>> * JDT
>> * Web tools
>> * JSF + Dali
>> * Visual Editor
>> * Mylar
>> * Tomcat | Jetty
>> * XDoclet 1.2.3?
>>
>
> No BIRT? No DataTools?
> I know, I know...we can't include everything. But those seems like
> pretty in line with "enterprise" development (a somewhat poor name, if
> you ask me - although I don't have anything better to offer; I use JEE
> technologies for many projects that are not "enterprise.")
> Also, if the SOA tools (STP) is ready for prime-time, it would seem to
> elong under the "enterprise" heading as well.
>
> What about Modeling stuff? Are you envisioning a separate Modeler package?
>
>
>> I've included Jetty on the list because I've been hearing a lot of
>> rumbling about it. I'll be honest, I don't know very much about it, or
>> even if it makes sense to include. I understand that platform is
>> including it, and wonder if we might be able to leverage that. I
>> believe that there is a web tools adapter for it (correct me if I'm
>> wrong).
>
> There are a couple of Bugzilla entries to track the Jetty effort. I
> think the gist is that it is replacing the bundled Tomcat stuff and will
> be part of the platform (since Help will depend on it). Here's the bug
> #s I have references to:
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=173692
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=138390
>
> Eric

How about Java EE developer and advanced Java EE Developer profiles?
Our experience with BIRT suggests that most if not all enterprise
applications need reporting which would strongly suggest the need for
birt in the advanced Java EE Developer profile. We have seen that most
applications gather data of some sort, and developers very quickly
figure out that users want to report on that data.

Krishna
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #573147 is a reply to message #3750] Wed, 14 February 2007 14:14 Go to previous message
Wayne Beaton is currently offline Wayne Beaton
Messages: 496
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
I, of course, meant to type "straw man" (or perhaps a "straw person"). Argh.

Wayne
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #573455 is a reply to message #3750] Thu, 15 February 2007 18:18 Go to previous message
Eric Rizzo is currently offline Eric Rizzo
Messages: 2202
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Wayne Beaton wrote:
> Greetings all. I thought that I might take a stab at a useful exemplary
> configuration for the packaging project.
>
> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>
> * Platform
> * JDT
> * Web tools
> * JSF + Dali
> * Visual Editor
> * Mylar
> * Tomcat | Jetty
> * XDoclet 1.2.3?
>

No BIRT? No DataTools?
I know, I know...we can't include everything. But those seems like
pretty in line with "enterprise" development (a somewhat poor name, if
you ask me - although I don't have anything better to offer; I use JEE
technologies for many projects that are not "enterprise.")
Also, if the SOA tools (STP) is ready for prime-time, it would seem to
elong under the "enterprise" heading as well.

What about Modeling stuff? Are you envisioning a separate Modeler package?


> I've included Jetty on the list because I've been hearing a lot of
> rumbling about it. I'll be honest, I don't know very much about it, or
> even if it makes sense to include. I understand that platform is
> including it, and wonder if we might be able to leverage that. I believe
> that there is a web tools adapter for it (correct me if I'm wrong).

There are a couple of Bugzilla entries to track the Jetty effort. I
think the gist is that it is replacing the bundled Tomcat stuff and will
be part of the platform (since Help will depend on it). Here's the bug
#s I have references to:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=173692
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=138390

Eric
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #573538 is a reply to message #3814] Fri, 16 February 2007 10:06 Go to previous message
Wayne Beaton is currently offline Wayne Beaton
Messages: 496
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Eric Rizzo wrote:

> No BIRT? No DataTools?

DataTools would be included by virtue of having the web tools included.

Other features, like BIRT will still be available via the update site.
While I agree that an "enterprise" package should include more
"enterprise" features out-of-the-box, I'm concerned about having too
heavy a download. It'd also be a shame if we had to have machine
requirements that are very large.

I'm thinking along the lines of "what would 80% of the people who use
this package need it to do?"

I wonder if this should be named "Java EE Developer"?

I think that a separate modeling package should be considered. Perhaps
as a superset of this one (but not necessarily).

Wayne
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #573745 is a reply to message #3835] Tue, 20 February 2007 15:48 Go to previous message
Ian Skerrett is currently offline Ian Skerrett
Messages: 198
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
>
> I wonder if this should be named "Java EE Developer"?


I agree. This package is really about Java EE and should be so named.
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #574131 is a reply to message #3750] Fri, 23 February 2007 08:31 Go to previous message
Urs Reupke is currently offline Urs Reupke
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hey Wayne,
you wrote:
> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>
> * Platform
> * JDT
> * Web tools
> * JSF + Dali
> * Visual Editor
> * Mylar
> * Tomcat | Jetty
> * XDoclet 1.2.3?

I am experimenting with the soon to be published initial code for the
packaging project, and have tried to build your proposed configurations.
In doing so, I noticed that there is no separate feature for Tomcat.
It's bundled directly with the platform, but appears on your list
nonetheless.

Did you mention it for any reason beside preventing the ignorant among
us (like me, 5 minutes ago) from shouting at you because you forgot it?

Regards
-Urs
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #574147 is a reply to message #4452] Fri, 23 February 2007 09:31 Go to previous message
Eric Rizzo is currently offline Eric Rizzo
Messages: 2202
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Urs Reupke wrote:
> Hey Wayne,
> you wrote:
>> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>>
>> * Platform
>> * JDT
>> * Web tools
>> * JSF + Dali
>> * Visual Editor
>> * Mylar
>> * Tomcat | Jetty
>> * XDoclet 1.2.3?
>
> I am experimenting with the soon to be published initial code for the
> packaging project, and have tried to build your proposed configurations.
> In doing so, I noticed that there is no separate feature for Tomcat.
> It's bundled directly with the platform, but appears on your list
> nonetheless.
>
> Did you mention it for any reason beside preventing the ignorant among
> us (like me, 5 minutes ago) from shouting at you because you forgot it?

Do the Bugzilla entries I posted to this thread last week tell you
anything about changes to the way Jetty is replacing Tomcat and how it
is being packaged? Things are changing but I don't remember the details.

Eric
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #574212 is a reply to message #4452] Fri, 23 February 2007 09:38 Go to previous message
Wayne Beaton is currently offline Wayne Beaton
Messages: 496
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Urs Reupke wrote:

> I am experimenting with the soon to be published initial code for the
> packaging project, and have tried to build your proposed configurations.
> In doing so, I noticed that there is no separate feature for Tomcat.
> It's bundled directly with the platform, but appears on your list
> nonetheless.
>

The Tomcat that's bundled with the platform is going away (see Eric's
comments). At least I understand that the platform team is considering
removing it and using Jetty in it's place.

Ideally, I'd like to see Tomcat bundled and configured for use
out-of-the-box. This is the main reason why I've called attention to it.

I'd be just as happy to have Jetty be configured for servlet/JSP testing
out-of-the-box (assuming that I understand Jetty well enough)

Wayne
Re: Strawpack package proposal for Java Enterprise Developer [message #574272 is a reply to message #3814] Mon, 26 February 2007 14:31 Go to previous message
Krishna Venkatraman is currently offline Krishna Venkatraman
Messages: 1476
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Eric Rizzo wrote:
> Wayne Beaton wrote:
>> Greetings all. I thought that I might take a stab at a useful
>> exemplary configuration for the packaging project.
>>
>> I call this one "Java Enterprise Developer"
>>
>> * Platform
>> * JDT
>> * Web tools
>> * JSF + Dali
>> * Visual Editor
>> * Mylar
>> * Tomcat | Jetty
>> * XDoclet 1.2.3?
>>
>
> No BIRT? No DataTools?
> I know, I know...we can't include everything. But those seems like
> pretty in line with "enterprise" development (a somewhat poor name, if
> you ask me - although I don't have anything better to offer; I use JEE
> technologies for many projects that are not "enterprise.")
> Also, if the SOA tools (STP) is ready for prime-time, it would seem to
> elong under the "enterprise" heading as well.
>
> What about Modeling stuff? Are you envisioning a separate Modeler package?
>
>
>> I've included Jetty on the list because I've been hearing a lot of
>> rumbling about it. I'll be honest, I don't know very much about it, or
>> even if it makes sense to include. I understand that platform is
>> including it, and wonder if we might be able to leverage that. I
>> believe that there is a web tools adapter for it (correct me if I'm
>> wrong).
>
> There are a couple of Bugzilla entries to track the Jetty effort. I
> think the gist is that it is replacing the bundled Tomcat stuff and will
> be part of the platform (since Help will depend on it). Here's the bug
> #s I have references to:
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=173692
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=138390
>
> Eric

How about Java EE developer and advanced Java EE Developer profiles?
Our experience with BIRT suggests that most if not all enterprise
applications need reporting which would strongly suggest the need for
birt in the advanced Java EE Developer profile. We have seen that most
applications gather data of some sort, and developers very quickly
figure out that users want to report on that data.

Krishna
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