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Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #38007] Thu, 03 August 2006 14:25 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: eric.kolotyluk.creo.com

I've been trying to use TPTP 4.2 in Eclipse 3.2. I found the whole
experience exasperatingly difficult, and I'm still not able to use TPTP
for anything useful.

First off I had trouble installing TPTP from any of the mirror sites
(because I didn't realize I could get it from the Calisto Discovery Site).
For a major release the mirror sites should have been tested because the
documentation said you could install TPTP this way. Finally I did get TPTP
installed from the discovery site.

Next I tried profiling my application using run ==> profile, but I got all
kinds of error messages about the Agent Controller not available. After
much discussion in the newsgroup I discovered that the Integrated Agent
Controller was not enabled because I ran Eclipse with Java 1.6. The whole
preference UI experience was not very forthcomming in giving useful
information to diagnose the problem and correct it.

After getting the profiling to work I found it annoying that I couldn't
monitor any of the profiling data because the console tab kept taking
focus and hiding the memory and exexution tabs. It would be better if the
default profiling perspective put the console tab as a bottom tile and
left the other monitoring tabs as top tiles so you could monitor more than
one thing at once.

Next I noticed that while my application was running the contents of the
memory and execution tabs was not changing as I would expect. I've used
the profiler in NetBeans and it shows the dynamic memory and execution
data as I would expect.

Looking through the online documentation I tried to follow "Tutorial:
Analyzing profiling data" and found there was no way I could get the
Execution Flow to work as documented.

After a week of trying to get TPTP to do something useful, and with much
help from other people, I can still do nothing useful with it.

By contrast the first time I tried the Profiler in NetBeans, it took me
about 10 minutes to get it configured and running (with no help from other
people) and another 10 minutes to figure out the features well enough to
get useful information about my application. It was all very slick,
professional, and mostly automatic. In short, usability was clearly a goal
in the design and implementation.

Sadly, eventually changes in our application eventually broke the NetBeans
profiler, and I haven't been able to get any help from anyone to
inestigate the problem.

One of the main reasons I prefer to use Eclipse as and IDE is that
generally I find the useability higher than NetBeans (as do most of my
co-workers). Unfortunately TPTP really falls flat on useability, and I
would like to make a strong plea for the project goals to focus more on
useability than on features. What good are features if you can't use them.
Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #38353 is a reply to message #38007] Wed, 09 August 2006 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Eric,

I am sorry to hear about your frustration.

I've cross-posted this to eclipse.tptp, as I believe that's where this
conversation really needs to happen.

"Eric Kolotyluk" <eric.kolotyluk@creo.com> wrote in message
news:8de7b3c568f41ebfb99df6a3fd310e5d$1@www.eclipse.org...
> I've been trying to use TPTP 4.2 in Eclipse 3.2. I found the whole
> experience exasperatingly difficult, and I'm still not able to use TPTP
> for anything useful.
>
> First off I had trouble installing TPTP from any of the mirror sites
> (because I didn't realize I could get it from the Calisto Discovery Site).
> For a major release the mirror sites should have been tested because the
> documentation said you could install TPTP this way. Finally I did get TPTP
> installed from the discovery site.
>
> Next I tried profiling my application using run ==> profile, but I got all
> kinds of error messages about the Agent Controller not available. After
> much discussion in the newsgroup I discovered that the Integrated Agent
> Controller was not enabled because I ran Eclipse with Java 1.6. The whole
> preference UI experience was not very forthcomming in giving useful
> information to diagnose the problem and correct it.
>
> After getting the profiling to work I found it annoying that I couldn't
> monitor any of the profiling data because the console tab kept taking
> focus and hiding the memory and exexution tabs. It would be better if the
> default profiling perspective put the console tab as a bottom tile and
> left the other monitoring tabs as top tiles so you could monitor more than
> one thing at once.
>
> Next I noticed that while my application was running the contents of the
> memory and execution tabs was not changing as I would expect. I've used
> the profiler in NetBeans and it shows the dynamic memory and execution
> data as I would expect.
>
> Looking through the online documentation I tried to follow "Tutorial:
> Analyzing profiling data" and found there was no way I could get the
> Execution Flow to work as documented.
>
> After a week of trying to get TPTP to do something useful, and with much
> help from other people, I can still do nothing useful with it.
>
> By contrast the first time I tried the Profiler in NetBeans, it took me
> about 10 minutes to get it configured and running (with no help from other
> people) and another 10 minutes to figure out the features well enough to
> get useful information about my application. It was all very slick,
> professional, and mostly automatic. In short, usability was clearly a goal
> in the design and implementation.
>
> Sadly, eventually changes in our application eventually broke the NetBeans
> profiler, and I haven't been able to get any help from anyone to
> inestigate the problem.
>
> One of the main reasons I prefer to use Eclipse as and IDE is that
> generally I find the useability higher than NetBeans (as do most of my
> co-workers). Unfortunately TPTP really falls flat on useability, and I
> would like to make a strong plea for the project goals to focus more on
> useability than on features. What good are features if you can't use them.
>
>
>
Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #38386 is a reply to message #38353] Wed, 09 August 2006 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Randy D. Smith is currently offline Randy D. Smith
Messages: 394
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
He actually did raise the issue originally in eclipse.tptp at the end of
a long thread where, in presumed exasperation, he asked if he was "the
only person having this much trouble with TPTP?" ... the silence was
deafening. I presume that in response to that silence he thought he was
"escalating" the matter by raising the issue over here. That's the way I
categorized his posting when I added an entry to the end of that thread
suggesting the conversation had migrated to eclipse.foundation.

And no, other than trying to answer his original questions and making
note of his eclipse.foundation posting in eclipse.tptp, I didn't have
anything to do with his "escalation process"! :-)


Just thought I'd make it clear it looked (to me) like he'd already tried
what you're suggesting here that he do.
--
RDS

Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> Eric,
>
> I am sorry to hear about your frustration.
>
> I've cross-posted this to eclipse.tptp, as I believe that's where this
> conversation really needs to happen.
>
> "Eric Kolotyluk" <eric.kolotyluk@creo.com> wrote in message
> news:8de7b3c568f41ebfb99df6a3fd310e5d$1@www.eclipse.org...
>
>>I've been trying to use TPTP 4.2 in Eclipse 3.2. I found the whole
>>experience exasperatingly difficult, and I'm still not able to use TPTP
>>for anything useful.
>>
>>First off I had trouble installing TPTP from any of the mirror sites
>>(because I didn't realize I could get it from the Calisto Discovery Site).
>>For a major release the mirror sites should have been tested because the
>>documentation said you could install TPTP this way. Finally I did get TPTP
>>installed from the discovery site.
>>
>>Next I tried profiling my application using run ==> profile, but I got all
>>kinds of error messages about the Agent Controller not available. After
>>much discussion in the newsgroup I discovered that the Integrated Agent
>>Controller was not enabled because I ran Eclipse with Java 1.6. The whole
>>preference UI experience was not very forthcomming in giving useful
>>information to diagnose the problem and correct it.
>>
>>After getting the profiling to work I found it annoying that I couldn't
>>monitor any of the profiling data because the console tab kept taking
>>focus and hiding the memory and exexution tabs. It would be better if the
>>default profiling perspective put the console tab as a bottom tile and
>>left the other monitoring tabs as top tiles so you could monitor more than
>>one thing at once.
>>
>>Next I noticed that while my application was running the contents of the
>>memory and execution tabs was not changing as I would expect. I've used
>>the profiler in NetBeans and it shows the dynamic memory and execution
>>data as I would expect.
>>
>>Looking through the online documentation I tried to follow "Tutorial:
>>Analyzing profiling data" and found there was no way I could get the
>>Execution Flow to work as documented.
>>
>>After a week of trying to get TPTP to do something useful, and with much
>>help from other people, I can still do nothing useful with it.
>>
>>By contrast the first time I tried the Profiler in NetBeans, it took me
>>about 10 minutes to get it configured and running (with no help from other
>>people) and another 10 minutes to figure out the features well enough to
>>get useful information about my application. It was all very slick,
>>professional, and mostly automatic. In short, usability was clearly a goal
>>in the design and implementation.
>>
>>Sadly, eventually changes in our application eventually broke the NetBeans
>>profiler, and I haven't been able to get any help from anyone to
>>inestigate the problem.
>>
>>One of the main reasons I prefer to use Eclipse as and IDE is that
>>generally I find the useability higher than NetBeans (as do most of my
>>co-workers). Unfortunately TPTP really falls flat on useability, and I
>>would like to make a strong plea for the project goals to focus more on
>>useability than on features. What good are features if you can't use them.


--
RDS

Randy D. Smith randy (dot) d (dot) smith (at) intel (dot) com
Eclipse TPTP Committer, Platform Proj (data collection/agent controller)
Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #38419 is a reply to message #38386] Thu, 10 August 2006 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
OK. The "deafening silence" is really too bad. But this is ultimately the
TPTP project's issue to deal with.

Eric --- the Foundation does not direct the projects. It's not like I (or
anyone else) can tell them what to do. As I've written elsewhere, usability
is something that we would like to see improved. We appreciate your feedback
and hopefully the TPTP project will begin to address some of your concerns.

> Just thought I'd make it clear it looked (to me) like he'd already tried
> what you're suggesting here that he do.
Re: Plea for Usability Goals in TPTP [message #38452 is a reply to message #38353] Thu, 10 August 2006 11:56 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: nmehrega.ca.ibm.com

This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 0057A1AD852571C6_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

I agree that there is a lot of room for usability improvements in TPTP,
but your feedback does help a lot so please keep it coming. I've opened
three defects for addressing the issues posted here:

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153451 Generate an
appropriate error message if Java 1.6 is used for JVMPI agent.
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153453 Profiling views
should automatically refresh
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153455 Location of
Console view should be changed

Please feel free to add yourself to the CC list of any of these defects.

Navid Mehregani
--=_alternative 0057A1AD852571C6_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I agree that there is a lot of room
for usability improvements in TPTP, but your feedback does help a lot so
please keep it coming. &nbsp;I've opened three defects for addressing the
issues posted here:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153451
&nbsp; &nbsp; Generate an appropriate error message if Java 1.6 is used
for JVMPI agent.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153453
&nbsp; &nbsp; Profiling views should automatically refresh</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=153455
&nbsp; &nbsp; Location of Console view should be changed</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please feel free to add yourself to
the CC list of any of these defects.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Navid Mehregani</font>
--=_alternative 0057A1AD852571C6_=--
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