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Cooperation with JFire? [message #2938] Tue, 11 September 2007 12:01 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: marco.jfire.org

Hi all,

I'd first like to congratulate on your project proposal. We saw it a few
days ago on the Eclipse website and believe it has great potential and
will hopefully attract a large community soon.

In your proposal, however, you write that you "are not aware of any
other efforts to build an open-source platform for constructing
financial applications". We therefore would like to call your attention
to the project JFire <http://jfire.org>, which is an open-source
platform for ERP applications. It comprises many financial aspects and
being a modular platform, there is plenty of room for creating
additional highly-specialised financial modules.

JFire overlaps with a lot of goals/visions stated in the OFMP:
* Both build on the Eclipse RCP.
* Componentization: Both platforms address the same issues.
* Both use BIRT as reporting engine.
* Many services & tools described in the "scope"
section already exist in JFire.

We believe it is worth considering to use JFire as basic platform
beneath the OFMP and a cooperation might save both projects a lot of
time. In order to introduce JFire in detail and discuss possible ways of
cooperation we'd like to take part in the OFMP symposium at Eclipse
Summit Europe.

Best regards,

Marco Schulze
JFire team
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #2955 is a reply to message #2938] Fri, 14 September 2007 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: frederic.conrotte.kaupthing.lu

Hello Marco,

sorry for the delay in my answer, I was pretty busy with our internal
release cycle.

"Marco Schulze" <marco@jfire.org> wrote in message
news:fc603m$f08$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Hi all,
>
> I'd first like to congratulate on your project proposal. We saw it a few
> days ago on the Eclipse website and believe it has great potential and
> will hopefully attract a large community soon.

Thanks !

> In your proposal, however, you write that you "are not aware of any
> other efforts to build an open-source platform for constructing
> financial applications". We therefore would like to call your attention
> to the project JFire <http://jfire.org>, which is an open-source
> platform for ERP applications. It comprises many financial aspects and
> being a modular platform, there is plenty of room for creating
> additional highly-specialised financial modules.

I tested JFire about 6 months ago but unfortunately I didn't mention it had
some financial modules dedicated to banking industry.
Sorry for that.

> JFire overlaps with a lot of goals/visions stated in the OFMP:
> * Both build on the Eclipse RCP.
> * Componentization: Both platforms address the same issues.
> * Both use BIRT as reporting engine.
> * Many services & tools described in the "scope" section already exist in
> JFire.
Ok, would it be possible for you to send the list of modules already
implemented in JFire that we plan to implement in OFMP ?

> We believe it is worth considering to use JFire as basic platform
> beneath the OFMP and a cooperation might save both projects a lot of
> time. In order to introduce JFire in detail and discuss possible ways of
> cooperation we'd like to take part in the OFMP symposium at Eclipse
> Summit Europe.
Great ! You're more that welcome there, we will discuss the scope of our
collaboration.

I see at least 2 types of modules where you have features more advanced than
our current platform anf then would be useful to OFMP:
* User/Roles/Groups management (security)
* Birt integration (advanced reports, integrated designer)

Fred
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #2972 is a reply to message #2938] Fri, 14 September 2007 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neil Bartlett is currently offline Neil Bartlett
Messages: 93
Registered: July 2009
Member
Marco,

There may be a functional overlap but unfortunately the website states
that JFire is licensed under the LGPL, which is deemed by the Eclipse
Foundation to be incompatible with the EPL. Therefore the OFMP project
will not be allowed to use or distribute any part of JFire unless the
license is changed.

The quickest and easiest way to get JFire components reused in an
Eclipse project would be to relicense it under EPL. Other licenses such
as Apache, Mozilla, BSD, MIT etc may allow for use in OFMP but will
require a slower approval process.

Kind regards,
Neil


Marco Schulze wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'd first like to congratulate on your project proposal. We saw it a few
> days ago on the Eclipse website and believe it has great potential and
> will hopefully attract a large community soon.
>
> In your proposal, however, you write that you "are not aware of any
> other efforts to build an open-source platform for constructing
> financial applications". We therefore would like to call your attention
> to the project JFire <http://jfire.org>, which is an open-source
> platform for ERP applications. It comprises many financial aspects and
> being a modular platform, there is plenty of room for creating
> additional highly-specialised financial modules.
>
> JFire overlaps with a lot of goals/visions stated in the OFMP:
> * Both build on the Eclipse RCP.
> * Componentization: Both platforms address the same issues.
> * Both use BIRT as reporting engine.
> * Many services & tools described in the "scope"
> section already exist in JFire.
>
> We believe it is worth considering to use JFire as basic platform
> beneath the OFMP and a cooperation might save both projects a lot of
> time. In order to introduce JFire in detail and discuss possible ways of
> cooperation we'd like to take part in the OFMP symposium at Eclipse
> Summit Europe.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marco Schulze
> JFire team
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #2989 is a reply to message #2972] Sat, 15 September 2007 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Frederic Conrotte is currently offline Frederic Conrotte
Messages: 125
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Neil Bartlett wrote:

> Marco,
>
> There may be a functional overlap but unfortunately the website states
> that JFire is licensed under the LGPL, which is deemed by the Eclipse
> Foundation to be incompatible with the EPL. Therefore the OFMP project
> will not be allowed to use or distribute any part of JFire unless the
> license is changed.
>
> The quickest and easiest way to get JFire components reused in an
> Eclipse project would be to relicense it under EPL. Other licenses such
> as Apache, Mozilla, BSD, MIT etc may allow for use in OFMP but will
> require a slower approval process.
Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their binary
form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #3006 is a reply to message #2989] Sat, 15 September 2007 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neil Bartlett is currently offline Neil Bartlett
Messages: 93
Registered: July 2009
Member
fred wrote:
> Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their binary
> form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?

In the case of GPL and LGPL, no -- not even binaries are permitted.
However, Spring is under the Apache license which is acceptable,
although you will still need to follow the correct procedure, it's not
as simple as just checking it in.

The rules are documented in a handy flowchart (PDF):

http://www.eclipse.org/legal/EclipseLegalProcessPoster.pdf

Regards
Neil
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #3041 is a reply to message #2955] Tue, 18 September 2007 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: marco.nightlabs.com

Hello Fred,

thanks a lot for your response and sorry for the delay on my side - I'm
quite busy, too ;-)

I'm very happy that you're open for a cooperation and I'll definitely
compile a detailed list of common features/goals, as soon as I can
allocate some time for it.

Thank you very much for the invitation to the OFMP symposium @ Eclipse
Summit Europe.

Concerning the license issue, I'm pretty sure, we can sort this out. If
it's really necessary, we probably could dual-license or switch from
LGPL to EPL. Before we can decide this, I have to read the EPL again in
depth, though.

Best regards, Marco :-)
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #3054 is a reply to message #3006] Tue, 18 September 2007 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: marco.nightlabs.com

Neil Bartlett wrote:
> fred wrote:
>> Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their
>> binary
>> form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?
>
> In the case of GPL and LGPL, no -- not even binaries are permitted.
> However, Spring is under the Apache license which is acceptable,
> although you will still need to follow the correct procedure, it's not
> as simple as just checking it in.
>
> The rules are documented in a handy flowchart (PDF):
>
> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/EclipseLegalProcessPoster.pdf
>
> Regards
> Neil

Hi Neil et al.,

IMHO it's possible to write and distribute proprietary software based on
LGPL libraries (that's actually the difference between GPL + LGPL). The
only requirements stated in the LGPL are that the user is told where he
can get the source code (a URL is sufficient) and that the usage of the
library is mentioned ("give prominent notice ... that the Library is used").

The flowchart linked in your post unfortunately doesn't explain why LGPL
is incompatible - it simply states it without rationale (or I overlooked
it).

But as stated in my previous post (answer to Fred's post), we could
probably dual-license or even switch, if really necessary.

Best regards, Marco :-)
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #4042 is a reply to message #3054] Tue, 18 September 2007 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neil Bartlett is currently offline Neil Bartlett
Messages: 93
Registered: July 2009
Member
Marco Schulze wrote:
> Neil Bartlett wrote:
>> fred wrote:
>>> Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their
>>> binary
>>> form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?
>> In the case of GPL and LGPL, no -- not even binaries are permitted.
>> However, Spring is under the Apache license which is acceptable,
>> although you will still need to follow the correct procedure, it's not
>> as simple as just checking it in.
>>
>> The rules are documented in a handy flowchart (PDF):
>>
>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/EclipseLegalProcessPoster.pdf
>>
>> Regards
>> Neil
>
> Hi Neil et al.,
>
> IMHO it's possible to write and distribute proprietary software based on
> LGPL libraries (that's actually the difference between GPL + LGPL). The
> only requirements stated in the LGPL are that the user is told where he
> can get the source code (a URL is sufficient) and that the usage of the
> library is mentioned ("give prominent notice ... that the Library is used").
>
> The flowchart linked in your post unfortunately doesn't explain why LGPL
> is incompatible - it simply states it without rationale (or I overlooked
> it).
>
> But as stated in my previous post (answer to Fred's post), we could
> probably dual-license or even switch, if really necessary.
>
> Best regards, Marco :-)

Hi Marco,

I didn't want to give my own opinion about LGPL or the Eclipse rules, I
merely wanted to point out that those rules exist and OFMP must comply
with them.

I believe the restriction arises due to patents rather than copyright,
and it's possible that the problem goes away with version 3 of LGPL. If
you were firmly committed to the LGPL, then it's possible that OFMP
could get permission from the EMO to use LGPL v3 code. But it would be a
slow process with an uncertain outcome.

It comes down to how committed you are to your choice of license versus
how easy you want to make it for OFMP to collaborate with you. The
easiest would be for you to switch/dual license to EPL. The second
easiest would be for you to switch/dual license to another compatible
license such as Apache or BSD.

Kind regards,
Neil
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #4114 is a reply to message #4042] Tue, 18 September 2007 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: frederic.conrotte.kaupthing.lu

"Neil Bartlett" <njbartlett@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fcosjg$5k1$1@build.eclipse.org...
>(snipp)
> I believe the restriction arises due to patents rather than copyright, and
> it's possible that the problem goes away with version 3 of LGPL. If you
> were firmly committed to the LGPL, then it's possible that OFMP could get
> permission from the EMO to use LGPL v3 code. But it would be a slow
> process with an uncertain outcome.

Thanks for the details Neil.

Do you know why LGPL and EPL are incompatible ? They are both quite liberal.
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #4183 is a reply to message #4114] Fri, 21 September 2007 07:31 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: frederic.conrotte.kaupthing.lu

"Frederic Conrotte" <frederic.conrotte@kaupthing.lu> wrote in message
news:fcotdh$82k$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Do you know why LGPL and EPL are incompatible ? They are both quite
> liberal.

Really clever move from European Union, building bridges between several
licences, specially between GPL and EPL :

http://milinkovich.blogspot.com/2007/09/introducing-eupl.htm l

"the writers of the Open Source Licence demonstrated an openness of mind by
authorising the re-distribution of derivate works under the compatible
licence:
a.. GNU General Public Licence v2.0
b.. Cecill v2.0
c.. Open Software Licence (OSL) v2.1
d.. Open Software Licence (OSL) v3.0
e.. Common Public Licence v1.0
f.. Eclipse Public Licence v1.0"
It's still a draft, but they choose the right direction I think.
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566242 is a reply to message #2938] Fri, 14 September 2007 12:05 Go to previous message
Frederic Conrotte is currently offline Frederic Conrotte
Messages: 125
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Hello Marco,

sorry for the delay in my answer, I was pretty busy with our internal
release cycle.

"Marco Schulze" <marco@jfire.org> wrote in message
news:fc603m$f08$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Hi all,
>
> I'd first like to congratulate on your project proposal. We saw it a few
> days ago on the Eclipse website and believe it has great potential and
> will hopefully attract a large community soon.

Thanks !

> In your proposal, however, you write that you "are not aware of any
> other efforts to build an open-source platform for constructing
> financial applications". We therefore would like to call your attention
> to the project JFire <http://jfire.org>, which is an open-source
> platform for ERP applications. It comprises many financial aspects and
> being a modular platform, there is plenty of room for creating
> additional highly-specialised financial modules.

I tested JFire about 6 months ago but unfortunately I didn't mention it had
some financial modules dedicated to banking industry.
Sorry for that.

> JFire overlaps with a lot of goals/visions stated in the OFMP:
> * Both build on the Eclipse RCP.
> * Componentization: Both platforms address the same issues.
> * Both use BIRT as reporting engine.
> * Many services & tools described in the "scope" section already exist in
> JFire.
Ok, would it be possible for you to send the list of modules already
implemented in JFire that we plan to implement in OFMP ?

> We believe it is worth considering to use JFire as basic platform
> beneath the OFMP and a cooperation might save both projects a lot of
> time. In order to introduce JFire in detail and discuss possible ways of
> cooperation we'd like to take part in the OFMP symposium at Eclipse
> Summit Europe.
Great ! You're more that welcome there, we will discuss the scope of our
collaboration.

I see at least 2 types of modules where you have features more advanced than
our current platform anf then would be useful to OFMP:
* User/Roles/Groups management (security)
* Birt integration (advanced reports, integrated designer)

Fred
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566264 is a reply to message #2938] Fri, 14 September 2007 22:40 Go to previous message
Neil Bartlett is currently offline Neil Bartlett
Messages: 93
Registered: July 2009
Member
Marco,

There may be a functional overlap but unfortunately the website states
that JFire is licensed under the LGPL, which is deemed by the Eclipse
Foundation to be incompatible with the EPL. Therefore the OFMP project
will not be allowed to use or distribute any part of JFire unless the
license is changed.

The quickest and easiest way to get JFire components reused in an
Eclipse project would be to relicense it under EPL. Other licenses such
as Apache, Mozilla, BSD, MIT etc may allow for use in OFMP but will
require a slower approval process.

Kind regards,
Neil


Marco Schulze wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'd first like to congratulate on your project proposal. We saw it a few
> days ago on the Eclipse website and believe it has great potential and
> will hopefully attract a large community soon.
>
> In your proposal, however, you write that you "are not aware of any
> other efforts to build an open-source platform for constructing
> financial applications". We therefore would like to call your attention
> to the project JFire <http://jfire.org>, which is an open-source
> platform for ERP applications. It comprises many financial aspects and
> being a modular platform, there is plenty of room for creating
> additional highly-specialised financial modules.
>
> JFire overlaps with a lot of goals/visions stated in the OFMP:
> * Both build on the Eclipse RCP.
> * Componentization: Both platforms address the same issues.
> * Both use BIRT as reporting engine.
> * Many services & tools described in the "scope"
> section already exist in JFire.
>
> We believe it is worth considering to use JFire as basic platform
> beneath the OFMP and a cooperation might save both projects a lot of
> time. In order to introduce JFire in detail and discuss possible ways of
> cooperation we'd like to take part in the OFMP symposium at Eclipse
> Summit Europe.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marco Schulze
> JFire team
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566294 is a reply to message #2972] Sat, 15 September 2007 20:50 Go to previous message
Frederic Conrotte is currently offline Frederic Conrotte
Messages: 125
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Neil Bartlett wrote:

> Marco,
>
> There may be a functional overlap but unfortunately the website states
> that JFire is licensed under the LGPL, which is deemed by the Eclipse
> Foundation to be incompatible with the EPL. Therefore the OFMP project
> will not be allowed to use or distribute any part of JFire unless the
> license is changed.
>
> The quickest and easiest way to get JFire components reused in an
> Eclipse project would be to relicense it under EPL. Other licenses such
> as Apache, Mozilla, BSD, MIT etc may allow for use in OFMP but will
> require a slower approval process.
Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their binary
form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566319 is a reply to message #2989] Sat, 15 September 2007 21:38 Go to previous message
Neil Bartlett is currently offline Neil Bartlett
Messages: 93
Registered: July 2009
Member
fred wrote:
> Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their binary
> form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?

In the case of GPL and LGPL, no -- not even binaries are permitted.
However, Spring is under the Apache license which is acceptable,
although you will still need to follow the correct procedure, it's not
as simple as just checking it in.

The rules are documented in a handy flowchart (PDF):

http://www.eclipse.org/legal/EclipseLegalProcessPoster.pdf

Regards
Neil
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566392 is a reply to message #2955] Tue, 18 September 2007 11:20 Go to previous message
Marco Schulze is currently offline Marco Schulze
Messages: 5
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Hello Fred,

thanks a lot for your response and sorry for the delay on my side - I'm
quite busy, too ;-)

I'm very happy that you're open for a cooperation and I'll definitely
compile a detailed list of common features/goals, as soon as I can
allocate some time for it.

Thank you very much for the invitation to the OFMP symposium @ Eclipse
Summit Europe.

Concerning the license issue, I'm pretty sure, we can sort this out. If
it's really necessary, we probably could dual-license or switch from
LGPL to EPL. Before we can decide this, I have to read the EPL again in
depth, though.

Best regards, Marco :-)
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566422 is a reply to message #3006] Tue, 18 September 2007 11:47 Go to previous message
Marco Schulze is currently offline Marco Schulze
Messages: 5
Registered: July 2009
Junior Member
Neil Bartlett wrote:
> fred wrote:
>> Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their
>> binary
>> form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?
>
> In the case of GPL and LGPL, no -- not even binaries are permitted.
> However, Spring is under the Apache license which is acceptable,
> although you will still need to follow the correct procedure, it's not
> as simple as just checking it in.
>
> The rules are documented in a handy flowchart (PDF):
>
> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/EclipseLegalProcessPoster.pdf
>
> Regards
> Neil

Hi Neil et al.,

IMHO it's possible to write and distribute proprietary software based on
LGPL libraries (that's actually the difference between GPL + LGPL). The
only requirements stated in the LGPL are that the user is told where he
can get the source code (a URL is sufficient) and that the usage of the
library is mentioned ("give prominent notice ... that the Library is used").

The flowchart linked in your post unfortunately doesn't explain why LGPL
is incompatible - it simply states it without rationale (or I overlooked
it).

But as stated in my previous post (answer to Fred's post), we could
probably dual-license or even switch, if really necessary.

Best regards, Marco :-)
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566451 is a reply to message #3054] Tue, 18 September 2007 15:58 Go to previous message
Neil Bartlett is currently offline Neil Bartlett
Messages: 93
Registered: July 2009
Member
Marco Schulze wrote:
> Neil Bartlett wrote:
>> fred wrote:
>>> Stupid question maybe, but what about software or libraries in their
>>> binary
>>> form ? Let's take Spring for example, can it be commited in Eclipse CVS ?
>> In the case of GPL and LGPL, no -- not even binaries are permitted.
>> However, Spring is under the Apache license which is acceptable,
>> although you will still need to follow the correct procedure, it's not
>> as simple as just checking it in.
>>
>> The rules are documented in a handy flowchart (PDF):
>>
>> http://www.eclipse.org/legal/EclipseLegalProcessPoster.pdf
>>
>> Regards
>> Neil
>
> Hi Neil et al.,
>
> IMHO it's possible to write and distribute proprietary software based on
> LGPL libraries (that's actually the difference between GPL + LGPL). The
> only requirements stated in the LGPL are that the user is told where he
> can get the source code (a URL is sufficient) and that the usage of the
> library is mentioned ("give prominent notice ... that the Library is used").
>
> The flowchart linked in your post unfortunately doesn't explain why LGPL
> is incompatible - it simply states it without rationale (or I overlooked
> it).
>
> But as stated in my previous post (answer to Fred's post), we could
> probably dual-license or even switch, if really necessary.
>
> Best regards, Marco :-)

Hi Marco,

I didn't want to give my own opinion about LGPL or the Eclipse rules, I
merely wanted to point out that those rules exist and OFMP must comply
with them.

I believe the restriction arises due to patents rather than copyright,
and it's possible that the problem goes away with version 3 of LGPL. If
you were firmly committed to the LGPL, then it's possible that OFMP
could get permission from the EMO to use LGPL v3 code. But it would be a
slow process with an uncertain outcome.

It comes down to how committed you are to your choice of license versus
how easy you want to make it for OFMP to collaborate with you. The
easiest would be for you to switch/dual license to EPL. The second
easiest would be for you to switch/dual license to another compatible
license such as Apache or BSD.

Kind regards,
Neil
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566476 is a reply to message #4042] Tue, 18 September 2007 16:12 Go to previous message
Frederic Conrotte is currently offline Frederic Conrotte
Messages: 125
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Neil Bartlett" <njbartlett@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fcosjg$5k1$1@build.eclipse.org...
>(snipp)
> I believe the restriction arises due to patents rather than copyright, and
> it's possible that the problem goes away with version 3 of LGPL. If you
> were firmly committed to the LGPL, then it's possible that OFMP could get
> permission from the EMO to use LGPL v3 code. But it would be a slow
> process with an uncertain outcome.

Thanks for the details Neil.

Do you know why LGPL and EPL are incompatible ? They are both quite liberal.
Re: Cooperation with JFire? [message #566519 is a reply to message #4114] Fri, 21 September 2007 07:31 Go to previous message
Frederic Conrotte is currently offline Frederic Conrotte
Messages: 125
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
"Frederic Conrotte" <frederic.conrotte@kaupthing.lu> wrote in message
news:fcotdh$82k$1@build.eclipse.org...
> Do you know why LGPL and EPL are incompatible ? They are both quite
> liberal.

Really clever move from European Union, building bridges between several
licences, specially between GPL and EPL :

http://milinkovich.blogspot.com/2007/09/introducing-eupl.htm l

"the writers of the Open Source Licence demonstrated an openness of mind by
authorising the re-distribution of derivate works under the compatible
licence:
a.. GNU General Public Licence v2.0
b.. Cecill v2.0
c.. Open Software Licence (OSL) v2.1
d.. Open Software Licence (OSL) v3.0
e.. Common Public Licence v1.0
f.. Eclipse Public Licence v1.0"
It's still a draft, but they choose the right direction I think.
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