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[GOVERNANCE] - The Prime Directives of Ethical Business [message #2703] Sun, 10 October 2004 06:13 Go to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

---- Forwarded Usenet-message ----
From: ilias <ilias@lazaridis.com>
Newsgroups: eclipse.platform
Subject: [ECLIPSE.ORG] - The Prime Directives of Ethical Business
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:17:54 +0300
URL: news://<opsfhk34lerp2aut@news.eclipse.org>

I've detected this very interesting startup:

http://www.sourcelabs.com/plan.htm

what is most interesting to me is this here:

"1) WE PROMISE NOT TO LOCK YOU IN, EVER. [...]"
"2) WE PROMISE TO KEEP OUR COMPANY OPEN [...]"
"3) WE PROMISE TO KEEP OUR EGOS SEPARATE FROM TECHNOLOGY [...]"

Although I've planed to focus on my personal projects (that's why i'm evaluating eclipse), I've immediately sent a note to sourcelabs that I am interested in working for them as an independent.

Why?

-

The impressive Prime Directives (especially #3):

The Prime Directive "Tie by Serving" (promise 1)

The Prime Directive "Transparency and Candor" (promise 2)

The Prime Directive "Control of Egoism" (promise 3)!

-

You can summarize those 3 as: "Ethical Business".

-

[btw: you can tranform those 3 to: "Serve, Tranparently and Rational"]

[btw: You can 'normalize' those 3 to: "Transparency".]

-

I miss exactly those 3 Prime Directives within eclipse.org.

Clearly stated.

Every new process should be defined based on those directives.

Every old process should be verified and adjusted based on those directives.

-

Currently, eclipse.org would fail dramatically to pass an [honest] evaluation against those 3 prime directives. Governance Model, Development Process, Project Infrastructure - all of them.
_

The wide scope of eclipse.org!

No chance without "Ethical Business".

Even if 50 more companies became stategic developers, eclipse would fail to have the success that it would deserve.

-

"Ethical Business" is the fundamental part which I miss within eclipse.org.

This is the main reason why eclipse.org (and thus eclipse IDE) will most possibly fail to pass my evaluation, forcing me to take the next step: netBeans.

Yes, I've evaluated eclipse IDE mostly based on the surrounding eclipse.org systems.

You think eclipse is technically far above NetBeans?

Wake up!

NetBeans + Ethical Business + some minor steps + 1 year = ?

-

A few months before i made a quick comparsion "NetBeans vs. eclipse". I picked eclipse - mainly due to technical structure (tool design framework) and its political structure (open to join).

I have lost very much time, but at least I have currently a lot of the eclipse.org domain knowledge active.

I have extracted many minor changes, which would bring eclipse.org quickly & smoothly closer to those 3 Prime Directives.

-

But!

Based on the time and energy needed to initialize and track only _one_ simple and _undoubtable_ rational change ("dedicated eclipse.org newsgroup", https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=73282), I estimate that it would take eclipse.org years to become as efficient as it should be.

Years, for something which could be done within a few months.

This is _highly_ disapointing to me.

-

[ you may think now: what is all this, how can "Ethical Business" increase efficiency and productivity of an open source project?

Simple: in an transparent and egoism-free system (open source project), rational change suggestions would be adopted nearly immediately. Feedback providers see that - a chain-reaction happens.]

..



--
http://lazaridis.com
Re: [GOVERNANCE] - The Prime Directives of Ethical Business [message #3469 is a reply to message #2703] Wed, 13 October 2004 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
SourceLabs is definitely an interesting startup, and the three principles
related to "What it means to Always be Open" are good.

But I think you're comparing apples to oranges. SourceLabs is a
venture-funded startup company. Eclipse is an open source project.

---------------------------
"ilias" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
news:opsfm4w6zkrp2aut@news.eclipse.org...
> ---- Forwarded Usenet-message ----
> From: ilias <ilias@lazaridis.com>
> Newsgroups: eclipse.platform
> Subject: [ECLIPSE.ORG] - The Prime Directives of Ethical Business
> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:17:54 +0300
> URL: news://<opsfhk34lerp2aut@news.eclipse.org>
>
> I've detected this very interesting startup:
>
> http://www.sourcelabs.com/plan.htm
>
> what is most interesting to me is this here:
>
> "1) WE PROMISE NOT TO LOCK YOU IN, EVER. [...]"
> "2) WE PROMISE TO KEEP OUR COMPANY OPEN [...]"
> "3) WE PROMISE TO KEEP OUR EGOS SEPARATE FROM TECHNOLOGY [...]"
>
> Although I've planed to focus on my personal projects (that's why i'm
evaluating eclipse), I've immediately sent a note to sourcelabs that I am
interested in working for them as an independent.
>
> Why?
>
> -
>
> The impressive Prime Directives (especially #3):
>
> The Prime Directive "Tie by Serving" (promise 1)
>
> The Prime Directive "Transparency and Candor" (promise 2)
>
> The Prime Directive "Control of Egoism" (promise 3)!
>
> -
>
> You can summarize those 3 as: "Ethical Business".
>
> -
>
> [btw: you can tranform those 3 to: "Serve, Tranparently and Rational"]
>
> [btw: You can 'normalize' those 3 to: "Transparency".]
>
> -
>
> I miss exactly those 3 Prime Directives within eclipse.org.
>
> Clearly stated.
>
> Every new process should be defined based on those directives.
>
> Every old process should be verified and adjusted based on those
directives.
>
> -
>
> Currently, eclipse.org would fail dramatically to pass an [honest]
evaluation against those 3 prime directives. Governance Model, Development
Process, Project Infrastructure - all of them.
> _
>
> The wide scope of eclipse.org!
>
> No chance without "Ethical Business".
>
> Even if 50 more companies became stategic developers, eclipse would fail
to have the success that it would deserve.
>
> -
>
> "Ethical Business" is the fundamental part which I miss within
eclipse.org.
>
> This is the main reason why eclipse.org (and thus eclipse IDE) will most
possibly fail to pass my evaluation, forcing me to take the next step:
netBeans.
>
> Yes, I've evaluated eclipse IDE mostly based on the surrounding
eclipse.org systems.
>
> You think eclipse is technically far above NetBeans?
>
> Wake up!
>
> NetBeans + Ethical Business + some minor steps + 1 year = ?
>
> -
>
> A few months before i made a quick comparsion "NetBeans vs. eclipse". I
picked eclipse - mainly due to technical structure (tool design framework)
and its political structure (open to join).
>
> I have lost very much time, but at least I have currently a lot of the
eclipse.org domain knowledge active.
>
> I have extracted many minor changes, which would bring eclipse.org quickly
& smoothly closer to those 3 Prime Directives.
>
> -
>
> But!
>
> Based on the time and energy needed to initialize and track only _one_
simple and _undoubtable_ rational change ("dedicated eclipse.org newsgroup",
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=73282), I estimate that it
would take eclipse.org years to become as efficient as it should be.
>
> Years, for something which could be done within a few months.
>
> This is _highly_ disapointing to me.
>
> -
>
> [ you may think now: what is all this, how can "Ethical Business" increase
efficiency and productivity of an open source project?
>
> Simple: in an transparent and egoism-free system (open source project),
rational change suggestions would be adopted nearly immediately. Feedback
providers see that - a chain-reaction happens.]
>
> .
>
>
>
> --
> http://lazaridis.com
Re: [GOVERNANCE] - The Prime Directives of Ethical Business [message #3632 is a reply to message #3469] Thu, 14 October 2004 06:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:49:54 -0400, Mike Milinkovich <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote:

> SourceLabs is definitely an interesting startup,

yes, and hopefully they will provide an eclipse distribution, too.

> and the three principles related to "What it means to Always be Open" are good.

We seem all [the startup, you, me] to agree here.

> But I think you're comparing apples to oranges.

Of course.

Both (apples and oranges) have taste and appearance.

-

Both (a "venture-funded startup" and an "open source project") have a "commitment to Ethical Business" [or Openness, or transparency], which I compare.

> SourceLabs is a venture-funded startup company.

with an _exceptional_ commitment to Openness [= Ethical Business].

> Eclipse is an open source project.

with an _exceptional_ _lack_ of commitment to Openness [= ???].

-

Do you [Eclipse Board, EMO, you (Eclipse Director)] really don't see the need to apply this openness to the Eclipse Foundation?

-

This topic (see shorten summary below) relates directly to the private message i've sent you (via email).

Did you receive the message? [I got no answer yet]

..

> "ilias" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
> news:opsfm4w6zkrp2aut@news.eclipse.org...
>> The Prime Directive "Tie by Serving" (promise 1)
>> The Prime Directive "Transparency and Candor" (promise 2)
>> The Prime Directive "Control of Egoism" (promise 3)!
[...]
>> You can summarize those 3 as: "Ethical Business".
[...]
>> Currently, eclipse.org would fail dramatically to pass an [honest]
>> evaluation against those 3 prime directives. Governance Model, Development
>> Process, Project Infrastructure - all of them.
[...]
>> I have lost very much time, but at least I have currently a lot of the
>> eclipse.org domain knowledge active.
>>
>> I have extracted many minor changes, which would bring eclipse.org quickly
>> & smoothly closer to those 3 Prime Directives.
[...]
>> Based on the time and energy needed to initialize and track only _one_
>> simple and _undoubtable_ rational change ("dedicated eclipse.org newsgroup",
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=73282), I estimate that it
>> would take eclipse.org years to become as efficient as it should be.
>>
>> Years, for something which could be done within a few months.
>>
>> This is _highly_ disapointing to me.


--
http://lazaridis.com
Re: [GOVERNANCE] - The Prime Directives of Ethical Business [message #4187 is a reply to message #3632] Fri, 15 October 2004 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Milinkovich is currently offline Mike Milinkovich
Messages: 258
Registered: July 2009
Senior Member
Ilias,

Eclipse is a very open community. I am not sure what your definition of
openness is. We publish all of our project plans, meeting minutes, etc.
Maybe not as fast as you like, but they get there. Everyone who has the
skill and dedication is able to contribute to our projects, and with
sufficient dedication hopefully become a Committer.

As for the three directives:

(1) I personally think that Eclipse's governance is very cool. But our
governance is based on the Eclipse Foundation being a member-driven
organization, supporting an open source project based on the principle of
openness, transparency and meritocracy. In other words, we are driven by the
needs of our developers and our members.
(2) I am trying to be as transparent and as candid as I have the time to be
with you.
(3) And I have personally never seen a case within the Eclipse community
where someone has put their technical ego ahead of the good of the
community.

You seem to think that Eclipse has many resources available. We don't. I've
seen your posting suggesting new projects, and I think that they're pretty
interesting. But you seem to lack an understanding of how open source
projects get created. I don't snap my fingers and poof up a group of
dedicated developers to work on a new idea. Developers need to step forward
and lead the charge as volunteers. If you want to see your project ideas
come to fruition, start recruiting developers and submit a project proposal
consistent with our Eclipse Development Process.

Many of the ideas that you've suggested are things which we have plans to
do. We are moving our IT infrastructure to a new location. We are hoping to
have new hardware and software donated which will allow us to support
important new functionality from our site. We intend to migrate our website
maintenance to an open development model. I hope to see many improvements in
the services we provide our developers, our members and our users. But these
changes are going to take months, not minutes.

Thanks for all of your interest in Eclipse. I know you have spent a great
deal of time learning about us, and I am sorry if we have not met your
expectations.

----------------------
Mike Milinkovich
Executive Director
Eclipse Foundation

"ilias" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
news:opsfuj2dh4rp2aut@news.eclipse.org...
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:49:54 -0400, Mike Milinkovich
<mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote:
>
> > SourceLabs is definitely an interesting startup,
>
> yes, and hopefully they will provide an eclipse distribution, too.
>
> > and the three principles related to "What it means to Always be Open"
are good.
>
> We seem all [the startup, you, me] to agree here.
>
> > But I think you're comparing apples to oranges.
>
> Of course.
>
> Both (apples and oranges) have taste and appearance.
>
> -
>
> Both (a "venture-funded startup" and an "open source project") have a
"commitment to Ethical Business" [or Openness, or transparency], which I
compare.
>
> > SourceLabs is a venture-funded startup company.
>
> with an _exceptional_ commitment to Openness [= Ethical Business].
>
> > Eclipse is an open source project.
>
> with an _exceptional_ _lack_ of commitment to Openness [= ???].
>
> -
>
> Do you [Eclipse Board, EMO, you (Eclipse Director)] really don't see the
need to apply this openness to the Eclipse Foundation?
>
> -
>
> This topic (see shorten summary below) relates directly to the private
message i've sent you (via email).
>
> Did you receive the message? [I got no answer yet]
>
> .
>
> > "ilias" <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
> > news:opsfm4w6zkrp2aut@news.eclipse.org...
> >> The Prime Directive "Tie by Serving" (promise 1)
> >> The Prime Directive "Transparency and Candor" (promise 2)
> >> The Prime Directive "Control of Egoism" (promise 3)!
> [...]
> >> You can summarize those 3 as: "Ethical Business".
> [...]
> >> Currently, eclipse.org would fail dramatically to pass an [honest]
> >> evaluation against those 3 prime directives. Governance Model,
Development
> >> Process, Project Infrastructure - all of them.
> [...]
> >> I have lost very much time, but at least I have currently a lot of the
> >> eclipse.org domain knowledge active.
> >>
> >> I have extracted many minor changes, which would bring eclipse.org
quickly
> >> & smoothly closer to those 3 Prime Directives.
> [...]
> >> Based on the time and energy needed to initialize and track only _one_
> >> simple and _undoubtable_ rational change ("dedicated eclipse.org
newsgroup",
> >> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=73282), I estimate that
it
> >> would take eclipse.org years to become as efficient as it should be.
> >>
> >> Years, for something which could be done within a few months.
> >>
> >> This is _highly_ disapointing to me.
>
>
> --
> http://lazaridis.com
Re: [GOVERNANCE] - The Prime Directives of Ethical Business [message #5150 is a reply to message #4187] Mon, 18 October 2004 14:01 Go to previous message
Eclipse User
Originally posted by: ilias.lazaridis.com

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:31:05 +0300, wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:54:52 -0400, Mike Milinkovich
> <mike.milinkovich@eclipse.org> wrote:
>
>> Ilias,
>>
>> Eclipse is a very open community. I am not sure what your definition of
>> openness is. We publish all of our project plans, meeting minutes, etc.
>> Maybe not as fast as you like, but they get there. Everyone who has the
>> skill and dedication is able to contribute to our projects, and with
>> sufficient dedication hopefully become a Committer.

ok

>> As for the three directives:
>>
>> (1) I personally think that Eclipse's governance is very cool. But our
>> governance is based on the Eclipse Foundation being a member-driven
>> organization, supporting an open source project based on the principle
>> of openness, transparency and meritocracy.

Ok.

If i decouple the "member-driven organization" from the "open source
projects", then i must agree that the projects are quite transparent.

But I doubt that you can keep up this distinction
(member-driven-organization & vendor-ecosystem / open-source-community).

Pressure from open-source-community is preprogrammed.

>> In other words, we are driven by the needs of our developers and our
>> members.

My main complaint here was (and is):

Users should get more influence (dedicated board representative and
planing councils representatives (at least in the requirement planning
council)).

>> (2) I am trying to be as transparent and as candid as I have the time
>> to be with you.

My complaints about transparency did not affect you personally!

>> (3) And I have personally never seen a case within the Eclipse community
>> where someone has put their technical ego ahead of the good of the
>> community.

I believe this.

[Normally you don't see those cases, but you sense them, especially if you
are in a weak position]

>> You seem to think that Eclipse has many resources available. We don't.

I don't think this.

>> I've
>> seen your posting suggesting new projects, and I think that they're
>> pretty interesting.

They are not "pretty interesting".

They are essential.

>> But you seem to lack an understanding of how open source
>> projects get created.

I've understood the Eclipse Foundation's project creation process.

>> I don't snap my fingers and poof up a group of
>> dedicated developers to work on a new idea. Developers need to step
>> forward and lead the charge as volunteers.

I don't think so, at least not for the projects i've suggested.

see below.

>> If you want to see your project ideas
>> come to fruition, start recruiting developers and submit a project
>> proposal consistent with our Eclipse Development Process.

The suggested projects are essential.

They would increase eclipse foundation's efficiency and reputation.

It's the foundations job (EMO, or even Board) to take any necessary steps
to launch them the soonest possible.

>> Many of the ideas that you've suggested are things which we have plans
>> to do.

The minimum you (the foundation) should do is:

Collect the thoughts & project suggestions and publish them on the website
in an "Seeking Collaboration" page.

This way interested parties can contact you and provide concrete project
proposals.

estimated effort: 3 working days.

>> We are moving our IT infrastructure to a new location. We are hoping to
>> have new hardware and software donated which will allow us to support
>> important new functionality from our site. We intend to migrate our
>> website maintenance to an open development model. I hope to see many
>> improvements in
>> the services we provide our developers, our members and our users. But
>> these changes are going to take months, not minutes.

I've written this again:

I don't accept those statements.

This _must_ not and _should_ not take months.

It is not a single chunk of work.

I've stated small _concrete_ suggestion, which can be adopted immediately.

The most obvious and essential example is this one:

"provide me a channel, where I can write down my suggestions"

"Community" Product in Bugzilla
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=57040

I think this is a request which anyone can insist on.

Estimated effort: 2 hours.

>> Thanks for all of your interest in Eclipse. I know you have spent a
>> great deal of time learning about us,

I have been focused on learning/detecting your (Eclipse Foundation)
weaknesses.

>> and I am sorry if we have not met your expectations.

This can still happen.

-

>>> This topic (see shorten summary below) relates directly to the private
>>> message i've sent you (via email).
>>>
>>> Did you receive the message? [I got no answer yet]

I got the answer via email.

Thank you.

..


--
http://lazaridis.com
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